Politics, politics, politics

[parklane1]

The article I linked has a very good example of the bien-pensant reaction to leave campaigners.

Yes i did read it, the thing that struck me was his view on others who will leave the EU. I have thought for a while that one of the reasons we are getting so many scare stories from the leaders of the other nations about our future if we leave, is that they are scared about seeing other countries following the same path.

IMO the EU is a busted flush and over the next decade they will be others who will want out.

 

[scaramanga]

Yes i did read it, the thing that struck me was his view on others who will leave the EU. I have thought for a while that one of the reasons we are getting so many scare stories from the leaders of the other nations about our future if we leave, is that they are scared about seeing other countries following the same path.

IMO the EU is a busted flush and over the next decade they will be others who will want out.

I think if anyone is to leave they want it to be one of the Greece/Spain types. Their economies are so fudged that their chances of success with or without the EU are minimal.

Once they leave and continue to be poor the EU will simply rewrite history and claim that they're poor because they left the EU.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

C'mon.....lets get the GG exit poll up and running......Robert Peston is waiting.

 

[Craig_J]

Have just voted. Wasn't at work and had completely forgot it was today until good old google news reminded me.

 

[parklane1]

I think if anyone is to leave they want it to be one of the Greece/Spain types. Their economies are so fudgeed that their chances of success with or without the EU are minimal.

Once they leave and continue to be poor the EU will simply rewrite history and claim that they're poor because they left the EU.

I think they will be a few who over the next decade or so who want out, but you are right about what the major players will say when it happens.

 

[SpurMeUp]

C'mon.....lets get the GG exit poll up and running......Robert Peston is waiting.

Can it be added to this thread?

@scaramanga have a lot of respect for your well made arguments. But I can not understand why you'd argue fervently to leave, but exercise a vote to remain. If remain is better for you, just be honest about it. It is better for you.

In most peoples' reasoned, logical analysis, remain is better for the UK. Its better for individuals, and better for the nation. Scotland leaving the UK, less jobs as car firms possibly financial services decline, the housing market falls off, external investment shrinks etc. It is not a rosy picture. Why would anyone want that? And we want to take this risk because of 'sovereignty' a concept that means what exactly?

Screw open trade, being part of a the largest trading block, screw all the experts who study economics day to day, screw the US president, the IMF, the Bank of England, screw them all. All of them know fuk all!? But don't worry, Donald Trump and the French fascist LePen know what they're on about, yes they must be correct in backing Brexit? If you are voting Leave you are with Trump and LePen and against almost all other sensible analysts.

I better go cast a vote, I am shocked that people are not more alarmed by leaving the EU. The EU is just functional, boring, it is not news worthy in what it does. But 'loss of sovereignty' and 'external control' to mad Frenchies is more interesting and editors know it. The EU allows us to trade and work with the countries we need to, and gives us a platform to work with the other major markets - US, China etc. Yes we must do more to control claiming benefits from Romania etc. but we have more immigrants from outside the EU ffs! If we leave the EU, I will re-appraise where this country is heading. I will considering selling property while its high, and look at other countries that are not on the periphery as the UK will be.

 

[scaramanga]

Can it be added to this thread?

@scaramanga have a lot of respect for your well made arguments. But I can not understand why you'd argue fervently to leave, but exercise a vote to remain. If remain is better for you, just be honest about it. It is better for you.

It's probably better for me financially but goes against so much of what I believe in.

It's only good for me because I'm not competing with immigrants for work and because my company relies so heavily on readily available labour keeping wages down. That just about outweighs all the additional cost that the EU causes us.

I don't believe that remaining is best for most other people and I don't believe it's best for the country as a whole. Currently though, I'm selling a house, buying a house and doubling the size of my mortgage, all with the cost of school fees looming on the horizon. The last thing I want is any short-medium term instability or uncertainty in the markets fudging with that. As I've said in other posts, for the first time in my lifetime of voting, my wallet has outweighed my conscience. It's not something I'm proud of or something I ever expect to happen again but it's my firm belief that country is far better off out, just not for the reasons that the horrendous leave campaign has been putting about.

 

[scaramanga]

but we have more immigrants from outside the EU ffs!

Only because we choose to. If we wanted to reduce or increase that number on a whim we could - that's quite an important distinction.

 

[parklane1]

Can it be added to this thread?

@scaramanga have a lot of respect for your well made arguments. But I can not understand why you'd argue fervently to leave, but exercise a vote to remain. If remain is better for you, just be honest about it. It is better for you.

In most peoples' reasoned, logical analysis, remain is better for the UK. Its better for individuals, and better for the nation. Scotland leaving the UK, less jobs as car firms possibly financial services decline, the housing market falls off, external investment shrinks etc. It is not a rosy picture. Why would anyone want that? And we want to take this risk because of 'sovereignty' a concept that means what exactly?

Screw open trade, being part of a the largest trading block, screw all the experts who study economics day to day, screw the US president, the IMF, the Bank of England, screw them all. All of them know fuk all!? But don't worry, Donald Trump and the French fascist LePen know what they're on about, yes they must be the correct in backing Brexit? If you are voting Leave you are with Trump and LePen and against almost all other sensible analysts.

I better go cast a vote, I am shocked that people are not more alarmed by leaving the EU. The EU is just functional, boring, it is not news worthy in what it does. But 'loss of sovereignty' and 'external control' by mad Frenchies is more interesting and editors know it. The EU allows us to trade and work with the countries we need to, and gives us a platform to work with the other major markets - US, China etc. Yes we must do more to control claiming benefits from Romania etc. but we have more immigrants from outside the EU ffs! If we leave the EU, I will re-appraise where this country is heading. I will considering selling property while its high, and look at other countries that are not on the periphery as the UK will be.

Wow were you born paranoid or have you come to it with age.

 

[AuroRaman]

I can't wait for the result to come in and I can laugh about it all. Because you guys care so much like it actually affects anything. I'm not meaning to go all Gifter but really, guys? All this nonsense and bickering when really, it affects nothing in our day-to-day and probably not even our future generations? The problem is with our own establishment. Regardless of what occurs outside of this 'referendum'. What suits our boys club in that building by the Thames will always come first and foremost before us.

For those of you pulling the immigration card. Seriously? Are you that brainwashed/ignorant/worried that Sunday Lunch will be eradicated under Muslamic Shania Twain Law? And do you seriously think you can't have an 'English way of life?' I know plenty of idiots from my old estate who still manage this type of life. Thankfully I don't have to deal with them day-to-day unless I plan trips to Margate/Clacton etc and get told that we want to take our country back (rather take it forwards to be honest)

Anyway. Hope all works out for all.

Love from

Immigrant dark-faced Londoner who has lived across three continents with no political leanings, who understands we live under a global identity cross-platform.




Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[SpurMeUp]

Wow were you born paranoid or have you come to it with age.

Is that the best argument you have for Leave? I simply prefer free trade with European countries, and reduced tariff trade with the rest of the world via the EU. The EU is a customs union, and if we leave it, we'll be worse off. You could label me "paranoid" if economists, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the FT etc. were all saying leaving would benefit the economy, and I was still concerned. In fact, they are saying the opposite. Only screwballs like Trump and LePen think leaving makes sense for the UK.

I could ask, were you born blindly optimistic or is it a recent malaise?

 

[SpurMeUp]

It's probably better for me financially but goes against so much of what I believe in.

What do you believe in?

You don't think the economic impact on you, might be mirrored by others? A 'trickle down' effect is a big piece of Conservative Thatcherite doctrine. Why are you separate to everyone else?

If a Japanese car company decides to invest into a new factory in Poland instead of retooling the one that's already in the UK, who is that good for? If banks and financial services start to investigate and setup offices in Paris or Frankfurt, and in 20 years time the London financial hub has shrunk, who is that good for? You are all for free trade, free purchasing power, free ability to hire the best people, and all you can say is, we can control immigration from outside the EU. But we haven't. We have more non-EU migrants than EU migrants! Does the problem really lie with the EU?

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Farage concedes defeat. He needs to stand down, he back tracked at last election and I honestly think he does more harm than good. Should have allowed that woman to take over.

If turn out was 45% or above than that will be good and frankly we just need one more recession and we will get them next time and than we can get back to being a truly global country that trades with world and not a dying Europe.

 

[the dza]

Farage concedes defeat. He needs to stand down, he back tracked at last election and I honestly think he does more harm than good. Should have allowed that woman to take over.

If turn out was 45% or above than that will be good and frankly we just need one more recession and we will get them next time and than we can get back to being a truly global country that trades with world and not a dying Europe.

Farage just hedging his bets, far too early to make the call yet.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Farage just hedging his bets, far too early to make the call yet.

I am pro world, anti EU. I have very liberal social views but have followed UKIP and honestly Farage is a gift to remain, he has been awful.

I am off to watch hello ladies with Stephen merchant on Amazon prime. Good night all.

 

[scaramanga]

What do you believe in?

Small government, low taxes, free trade/markets, not keeping Africa in poverty to protect inefficient farmers.

You don't think the economic impact on you, might be mirrored by others? A 'trickle down' effect is a big piece of Conservative Thatcherite doctrine. Why are you separate to everyone else?

This isn't trickle down, this is just something that applies differently to different people.

I'm in the top few % like most on this forum I suspect, it's easier for us to invest around problems caused by a failing Europe. We have skills we could take anywhere in the world when it all goes to rooster.

If a Japanese car company decides to invest into a new factory in Poland instead of retooling the one that's already in the UK, who is that good for? If banks and financial services start to investigate and setup offices in Paris or Frankfurt, and in 20 years time the London financial hub has shrunk, who is that good for? You are all for free trade, free purchasing power, free ability to hire the best people, and all you can say is, we can control immigration from outside the EU. But we haven't. We have more non-EU migrants than EU migrants! Does the problem really lie with the EU?

I've already made the case as to why there probably won't be tariffs, so has the German equivalent of the CBI for that matter.

I've also made the case of how, even if the relatively small WTO tariffs are applied, we'd come out better off. And I've indicated how we could discount EU exports so that our prices are still competitive.

So none of the scaremongering you've posted can or will happen.

 

[Craig_J]

Gilbrlatar votes to remain. No suprise there considering their location.

 

[Modric THFC]

From http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/19/eu-referendum-result-polls-britain-europe on Sunday

"If the referendum were a dead heat, we should expect Leave to be six percentage points ahead in Sunderland, winning 53% to 47%. That figure is still subject to a lot of uncertainty: in a dead heat Leave could be anywhere between one point behind and 13 points ahead. But the closer things are in Sunderland, the better things will be for Remain"

Rumours(bbc) are that Sunderland will be 60% Leave

 

[Modric THFC]

Remember with regards to the extra turnout. The people that don't usually vote are the disenfranchised working classes. The extra turnout does not necessarily mean Remain. Farage has no more idea of the vote than anyone else. The polls are a mess.

 

[Craig_J]

Quite amusing looking at the people cheering the leave result in Sunderland. All bald middle aged men wondering why they couldn't vote National Front at the last election.