Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Grays_1890]

Are you taking the tinkle?

Nope not at all, he went to a preview meeting at the QE2 center a while back about it. Basically the net zero push has nothing to do with the UK pushing towards a target

 

[Grays_1890]

You do realise that there are parts of the country that are almost all english and all white? The streets still get cleaned. The sewers are serviced and all the back breaking work still goes on?

White english people do brick jobs. If there was less of an influx of cheap foreign labour though, maybe those jobs would be better paid.

Firstly It was a joke....

Secondly I don't think I've actually seen a human being cleaning the streets anywhere since the late 90s, although I take your point

Lastly, I think it's a fairly broad stroke about it only just being about cheap labour. Plenty of work out there within normal wage terms at the moment that people either don't want to do our are not skilled to do. Many industries are crying out for people for work, there is a huge shortfall in pick up, it's worse than pre pandemic

 

[Gutter Boy]

Nope. People were for sure happy with Boris Johnson's tories and their policies, but party-gate really f**ked them. My personal story: my twin girls were born May 2020. I was told to wait outside the labour ward until she was in full labour. It was red hot and I waited for hours. I was called in, they were born, and I was kicked out again. She came home and we were on our own with a 2 1/2 year old little boy and twin new born with no support and no visitors. But I did what they asked of me, even though part of me thought "is this bullsh*t". I decided I wouldn't vote for them again. Sure as h*ll wasn't going to vote for labour though. And that's what you got in 2024: you got labour actually losing votes from their "worst popularity ever" in 2019 but still emerging with a huge majority due to 1) voters like me that voted tory in 2019 just not turning up and 2) people voting Reform. Suspect a good portion of those that fell into 1) will do 2) at next election along with a good slice of new switchers from both Tory and Labour. And people are not dumb. We don't expect Farage to be anything other than a self-centred narcissist like any other politician. But what we want and expect is 1) we will vote for you not because of who you are or aren't but because we think you're the best chance of implementing what we want to be implemented and 2) do all the narcissistic sh*t you want but don't rub our faces in it. Don't make laws that f*ck people over and then publically flout them in full view.

That's still pretty close to my original point though. It's classic Thatcherite policies, just with different personnel. If you looked at a blind Badenoch manifesto versus a Farage one, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Other than guessing whose might be the most illiterate of the two.

They are two middle right parties. Who as things stand compete against two centre right parties. With almost no Keynesian in sight.

 

[johnola]

Nope not at all, he went to a preview meeting at the QE2 center a while back about it. Basically the net zero push has nothing to do with the UK pushing towards a target

Righto.

 

[Grays_1890]

Righto.

Yep, more to do with trying to future proof the UK and industry by developing technology and skills within green tech industries that can be sold globally than it is about THE UK reaching their specific target.

Like London being a world leader now in AI for many years now it's as much about future proofing industries for jobs which isn't the most stupid of ideas as the world develops

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

That's still pretty close to my original point though. It's classic Thatcherite policies, just with different personnel. If you looked at a blind Badenoch manifesto versus a Farage one, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Other than guessing whose might be the most illiterate of the two.

They are two middle right parties. Who as things stand compete against two centre right parties. With almost no Keynesian in sight.

Sort of agree. Think thing is that Reform are taking voters off both Tories and Labour and both parties tacking to right to stem flow but then losing voters on their left to Lib dems and greens. And yeah, what you're basically left with is the current polling and election results with x5 parties with significant vote share, but Reform edging out in front on about 29%-30% (because if you're being asked to choose between x3 centre-right parties that all promise to be tough on immigration and a return to conservative british values, you may as well pick the real McCoy......then you've got Labour on about 23-25 and tories on around 19-20. Lib Dems on around 15 and greens edging up to 10.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Firstly It was a joke....

Secondly I don't think I've actually seen a human being cleaning the streets anywhere since the late 90s, although I take your point

Lastly, I think it's a fairly broad stroke about it only just being about cheap labour. Plenty of work out there within normal wage terms at the moment that people either don't want to do our are not skilled to do. Many industries are crying out for people for work, there is a huge shortfall in pick up, it's worse than pre pandemic

I've gone over this before but it's more than demand is constantly accelerating. Immigration necessitates more immigration. That's why each successive government has promised to reduce immigration but actually let it increase. The root cause of many if not most of the country's problems is rapidly increasing population size and immigration is one half of the root cause of that. And in fact likely the majority of it because immigrants tend to be younger and therefore arrive and have babies.

But back to the point....if we just take one area that is known to be short (bricklayers), it's actually only short in the context of housing demand and its a vicious cycle of:
- "we need more bricklayers - there's a housing shortage"
- "get foreign ones in"
- "good idea!"
- "Er....i need more bricklayers"
- "Did you get the foreign ones in?"
- "yeah, but they need houses to live in and so i need even more"
- "ok, get more foreign ones in then...."
This goes on across all sectors and actually you'd alleviate pressure by just accepting a Stagnation in the population, in the economy, a realisation that growth isn't necessary good and that immigration is a cheap easy temporary fix. It's the equivalent of taking weight loss drugs rather than adjusting your lifestyle. It's going to catch up with you sooner rather than later.

 

[Grays_1890]

I've gone over this before but it's more than demand is constantly accelerating. Immigration necessitates more immigration. That's why each successive government has promised to reduce immigration but actually let it increase. The root cause of many if not most of the country's problems is rapidly increasing population size and immigration is one half of the root cause of that. And in fact likely the majority of it because immigrants tend to be younger and therefore arrive and have babies.

But back to the point....if we just take one area that is known to be short (bricklayers), it's actually only short in the context of housing demand and its a vicious cycle of:
- "we need more bricklayers - there's a housing shortage"
- "get foreign ones in"
- "good idea!"
- "Er....i need more bricklayers"
- "Did you get the foreign ones in?"
- "yeah, but they need houses to live in and so i need even more"
- "ok, get more foreign ones in then...."
This goes on across all sectors and actually you'd alleviate pressure by just accepting a Stagnation in the population, in the economy, a realisation that growth isn't necessary good and that immigration is a cheap easy temporary fix. It's the equivalent of taking weight loss drugs rather than adjusting your lifestyle. It's going to catch up with you sooner rather than later.

But equally that doesn't tell the whole story either because it's not just bricklayers because of a housing crisis viscuous circle.

Industries like the hospitality industry which this country relies on for its very being as one of the largest industries and because it also cultivates foreign cash xchange is shockingly short of talent because the British workers are more transient in hospitality than other nations and because there was a huge purge of talent during Covid and Brexit.

There are also many industries hit by ageing population in aome sectors with low interest pick up from young potential

In all honesty and with huge respect, its all sounding abit similar to that macaron SkipRats ideology that you just make universal cuts to all UK immigration, across the board, and the country some how selfsooths

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

But equally that doesn't tell the whole story either because it's not just bricklayers because of a housing crisis viscuous circle.

Industries like the hospitality industry which this country relies on for its very being as one of the largest industries and because it also cultivates foreign cash xchange is shockingly short of talent because the British workers are more transient in hospitality than other nations and because there was a huge purge of talent during Covid and Brexit.

There are also many industries hit by ageing population in aome sectors with low interest pick up from young potential

But even there you're still into the same thing: you want a load of hospitality staff from abroad. Fine. But they all need houses to live in, doctors and dentists to register with, school places for their kids, they all put an extra car or two on the roads, they're all adding to the overflowing sewer systems. Every time you add +1 to the population, demand goes up and you need more people to service that demand....

 

[Grays_1890]

But even there you're still into the same thing: you want a load of hospitality staff from abroad. Fine. But they all need houses to live in, doctors and dentists to register with, school places for their kids, they all put an extra car or two on the roads, they're all adding to the overflowing sewer systems. Every time you add +1 to the population, demand goes up and you need more people to service that demand....

You have no choice but to bring people over for certain industries though because there isn't enough of a population here to service those jobs and in many cases in many industries there is a skills gap.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

You have no choice but to bring people over for certain industries though because there isn't enough of a population here to service those jobs and in many cases in many industries there is a skills gap.

You do have a choice. Bringing people over to fill gaps *creates* more gaps. That's the point.

 

[Grays_1890]

You do have a choice. Bringing people over to fill gaps *creates* more gaps. That's the point.

As always with these conversations m....."in some cases" and not always. Which is the wider point

 

[johnola]

Yep, more to do with trying to future proof the UK and industry by developing technology and skills within green tech industries that can be sold globally than it is about THE UK reaching their specific target.

Like London being a world leader now in AI for many years now it's as much about future proofing industries for jobs which isn't the most stupid of ideas as the world develops

I think he’s pulled some wool over your eyes there quite honestly.

So he has not been actively discouraging the government of the U.K. from developing its own fossil fuel resources after all?

Because he has. And he has because net zero is primarily about reducing emissions.

 

[Grays_1890]

I think he’s pulled some wool over your eyes there quite honestly.

So he has not been actively discouraging the government of the U.K. from developing its own fossil fuel resources after all?

Because he has. And he has because net zero is primarily about reducing emissions.

Nothing to do with wool over my eyes, as I said at the beginning a good friend of mine who works for the Abu Dhabi government went to a trade event and it was a massive topic of discussion about the UK developing green tech and using it as an industry to skill upwards and sell the tech developments globally. Just posting what he told me, Nothing more, nothing less

As with everything the proof will be in the eating with this stuff

 

[Lilbaz]

You have no choice but to bring people over for certain industries though because there isn't enough of a population here to service those jobs and in many cases in many industries there is a skills gap.

There is 1 million (almost half)18-24 year olds in this country not working. 8.7 million in total (under the age of 64).

Economic inactivity

In 2022, the highest and lowest rates of economic inactivity were in the combined Pakistani and Bangladeshi (33%) and white 'other’ (15%) ethnic groups.

www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk

 

[Craig_J]

We are trying something different. We've got Labour in and it's even worse!

In terms of my standards being 2 low....if I want a car and the only cars available are f***ing sh*t, i still need a car. I chose not to vote last election. So how are my standards low? Most of the time I've voted in my life the biggest motivation is "avoid the worst option". You're not voting for someone, you're voting someone out or your trying to keep someone from getting in...

Saying we got Labour in and its even worse

People in Europe consider us an absoloute laughig stock. 10 years no trade deal. Told we were top of the pile (we weren't - no one even notices us missing from their assett sheets)

Truss crashing the economy, constant leadership battles, having to accept 3 PMs with no vote (hardly democratic)

We were a laughing stock. The Torys have ruined this country,

Under Labour it is completely underhweling.

But we don't need Tory anti growth coaliton or any central gonads.

15 years proves that Conservativsm and neolierablism is a decent idea but it doesn't work in practice.

Its all well and good under Thacther when you have the family silver to sell. We don't hhave anything left to artifially prop up the spredhseets

No more waiting for paint to try. Lets do things radically different rather tha wait till we're all grey, dead or buried.

 

[Craig_J]

We are trying something different. We've got Labour in and it's even worse!

In terms of my standards being 2 low....if I want a car and the only cars available are f***ing sh*t, i still need a car. I chose not to vote last election. So how are my standards low? Most of the time I've voted in my life the biggest motivation is "avoid the worst option". You're not voting for someone, you're voting someone out or your trying to keep someone from getting in...

Again

I despise Starmer

But he's been in charge a year.

The torys for 15 years

Conservativsm does not work. Tax cuts do not work. Brexit does not work. In EU doesn't work

Conservatives seem to think if you sit about for alf a cenutry maybe we will get 1% growth.

fudge that. fudge the 1980s when you had the chance to sell all our indusites.

Sadly Ms Thacther is long gone and her policies don't work anymore

 

[Craig_J]

All Torys and Reform have to fall back on now is selling the NHS to thier mates. Then anotehr couple decades of zero growth.

I was 16 when Torys came to power. Now I am 31 coming up 32. I have watched the perpetual decay of Briiths society to the point our NHS waiting lists are through the roof, no growth has happened,

I cannot afford a house and can barely sustain any kind of life. And I am supposed to work until I am (probably) 75 of or some brick.

Pot holes litter the road. Our society has been in decay for so long the repair bill now is astronomical. Everything is bloody privatised cos if Tory's aint selling the family silver we don't get anything.


I used to keep an open mind when I was younger that I might be wrong.

Now I see the reality.

The only real way of generating growth is Fabian growth. Borrow the fudging money and invest.

The Torys borrowed enough for Brexit, Covid, and everyting else.

Social democracy all the way or permanent decay.

 

[Craig_J]

You do realise that there are parts of the country that are almost all english and all white? The streets still get cleaned. The sewers are serviced and all the back breaking work still goes on?

White english people do brick jobs. If there was less of an influx of cheap foreign labour though, maybe those jobs would be better paid.

I always find this one hilarious

Any Tory or reform voter comes up with this one

Guess what?! Being undercut is one of the epitomes of right wing capitalism! It is supply and demand my friend

Also it’s a load of gonads

Let me guess. Your one of those people that campaign against a minimum wage and votes for a capitalist regime whilst blaming Johnny Foreigner for the state of this country - and not voting for the status crap that’s had 15 years and 5 PMs to change… then saying we’re being undercut . As if it’s not bread and butter of the you vote for?

 

[Craig_J]

This is why I am disillusioned with this country

I think British people are so gormless in the 2050s they will still be voting in different shades of Tory, blaming Johnny Foreigner and TonyBlair

Saying “well the last 10 haven’t worked out yet but we’ll try again”

At no point will a British person say maybe for the first time in 60 years we should try something which isn’t distinguishly neoliberal

Just as they’ll never confront the fact Brexit has fudged us up and left us without any international trade

Because the average English person is to thick to consider alternatives

Anyhow as you are. Blue passports, Brexit means Brexit. I am sure Farage is a fantastic bloke - completely different and and not a complete leach who’ll promise the world and sell us all down the swanny. I am sure his history in having done exactly that in the past is irrelevant and won’t happen again.

And people really will belatedly admire the British Empirre and aren’t watching us laughing at us self destructing