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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

DTA said:
Well I disagree. But apart from that will you take responsibility? Will you work to fix some of the negatives?
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If this and subsequent governments fail to use this opportunity to lower taxes and regulations so that we can undercut the EU, I will certainly be lobbying for them to do that.
 
DTA said:
But if it damages the uk, makes us poorer, less relevant, breaks the union, make us even more of lowly extension of the United states, starts the privatisation of healthcare continues the rise of racism. if all or some of that happens, will you turn around and say you were wrong, will try to fix your mistake... or will you continue down the same path but ramp it up? If all or some of the above come into being, do you bare any responsibility? Will you try to do something about it because of that responsibility?
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Just rejoin
 
DTA said:
I hope it is for the best... I really do. And if it is i will turn around and say i was wrong. You guys were right.

But if it damages the uk, makes us poorer, less relevant, breaks the union, make us even more of lowly extension of the United states, starts the privatisation of healthcare continues the rise of racism. if all or some of that happens, will you turn around and say you were wrong, will try to fix your mistake... or will you continue down the same path but ramp it up? If all or some of the above come into being, do you bare any responsibility? Will you try to do something about it because of that responsibility?

Like I said... I hope it doesn't. Because even though I'm second generation I still love this country, I will still be paying taxes here and hopefully making investments.

@scaramanga @Danishfurniturelover @parklane1 @Parklaner81 @Grays_1890 @Gutter Boy @nigelFarragelover69
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While I agree about holding our hands up if Boris pulls it off and everything is peachy, you can't blame or hold ordinary people to account if it goes tits up. That should be for those who told half-truths. We already know some of them are wrong - remember the Eu is doomed and will crumble without us? Or negotiating with the EU will be the easiest thing ever, done in months because of German car firms etc etc Those who made these and other promises should be held to account. Not people who believed it.
 
SpurMeUp said:
While I agree, holding our hands up if Boris pulls it off and everything is peachy, you can't blame or hold ordinary people to account if it goes tits up. That should be for those who told half-truths. We already know some of them are wrong - remember the Eu is doomed and will crumble without us? Or negotiating with the EU will be the easiest thing ever, done in months because of German car firms etc etc Those who made these and other promises should be held to account. Not people who believed it.
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Half-truths? Half? You must nip out for half-time three seconds after kick-off.
 
DTA said:
Well I disagree. But apart from that will you take responsibility? Will you work to fix some of the negatives?
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See this is where it's going to be difficult.

As nearly half the people didn't want it, getting everyone pulling in the same direction in the first place will be hard enough, but as you already show any bumps or hills in the road have already got 'the other lots' name on to rectify.
 
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SpurMeUp said:
While I agree about holding our hands up if Boris pulls it off and everything is peachy, you can't blame or hold ordinary people to account if it goes tits up. That should be for those who told half-truths. We already know some of them are wrong - remember the Eu is doomed and will crumble without us? Or negotiating with the EU will be the easiest thing ever, done in months because of German car firms etc etc Those who made these and other promises should be held to account. Not people who believed it.
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Well actually yeah ordinary people do have a responsibility. If not for the original referendum result because of the lies... then for electing Boris.

From a financial standpoint it would make sense if I voted Tory in the last election. But my conscious and affection for the country wouldn't let me do it.
 
DTA said:
I'm almost certain France would be extremely awkward especially if we were in a position of having 'failed' to make Brexit a success.
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Yet the EU is a significantly stronger entity with the UK in - that's why they fought so hard with the traitors in the Commons to try and stop all of this.
 
It’s done. A triumph of dogged negotiation by May then, briefly, Johnson, has fulfilled the most pointless, masochistic ambition ever dreamed of in the history of these islands. The rest of the world, presidents Putin and Trump excepted, have watched on in astonishment and dismay. A majority voted in December for parties which supported a second referendum. But those parties failed lamentably to make common cause. We must pack up our tents, perhaps to the sound of church bells, and hope to begin the 15-year trudge, back towards some semblance of where we were yesterday with our multiple trade deals, security, health and scientific co-operation and a thousand other useful arrangements.

The only certainty is that we’ll be asking ourselves questions for a very long time. Set aside for a moment Vote Leave’s lies, dodgy funding, Russian involvement or the toothless Electoral Commission. Consider instead the magic dust. How did a matter of such momentous constitutional, economic and cultural consequence come to be settled by a first-past-the-post vote and not by a super-majority? A parliamentary paper (see Briefing 07212) at the time of the 2015 Referendum Act hinted at the reason: because the referendum was merely advisory. It “enables the electorate to voice an opinion”. How did “advisory” morph into “binding”? By that blinding dust thrown in our eyes from right and left by populist hands.

We endured a numbing complicity between government and opposition. The door out of Europe was held open by Corbyn for Johnson to walk through. In this case, if you travelled far enough to the left, you met and embraced the right coming the other way.

Ian McEwan

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/01/brexit-pointless-masochistic-ambition-history-done
 
SpurMeUp said:
It’s done. A triumph of dogged negotiation by May then, briefly, Johnson, has fulfilled the most pointless, masochistic ambition ever dreamed of in the history of these islands. The rest of the world, presidents Putin and Trump excepted, have watched on in astonishment and dismay. A majority voted in December for parties which supported a second referendum. But those parties failed lamentably to make common cause. We must pack up our tents, perhaps to the sound of church bells, and hope to begin the 15-year trudge, back towards some semblance of where we were yesterday with our multiple trade deals, security, health and scientific co-operation and a thousand other useful arrangements.

The only certainty is that we’ll be asking ourselves questions for a very long time. Set aside for a moment Vote Leave’s lies, dodgy funding, Russian involvement or the toothless Electoral Commission. Consider instead the magic dust. How did a matter of such momentous constitutional, economic and cultural consequence come to be settled by a first-past-the-post vote and not by a super-majority? A parliamentary paper (see Briefing 07212) at the time of the 2015 Referendum Act hinted at the reason: because the referendum was merely advisory. It “enables the electorate to voice an opinion”. How did “advisory” morph into “binding”? By that blinding dust thrown in our eyes from right and left by populist hands.

We endured a numbing complicity between government and opposition. The door out of Europe was held open by Corbyn for Johnson to walk through. In this case, if you travelled far enough to the left, you met and embraced the right coming the other way.

Ian McEwan

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/01/brexit-pointless-masochistic-ambition-history-done
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Good author. Needs to get back in his box.
 
scaramanga said:
If one is as out of their depth trying to understand this to the same extent he is, I can imagine it would seem that way.
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What did we learn in our blindness? That those not flourishing within the status quo had no good reason to vote for it; that our prolonged parliamentary chaos derived from an ill-posed yes-no question to which there were a score of answers; .......that any mode of departure, by the government’s own estimate, will shrink the economy; that we have a gift for multiple and bitter division – young against old, cities against the country, graduates against early school-leavers, Scotland and Northern Ireland against England and Wales; that all past, present and future international trade deals or treaties are a compromise with sovereignty, as is our signature on the Paris accords, or our membership of Nato, and that therefore “Take Back Control” was the emptiest, most cynical promise of this sorry season.

To be honest, he seems to have a thorough understanding. While data generalises makes sweeping assumptions, with that caveat: do you feel out of place demographically backing Brexit? Technically you did vote to remain so this might be a moot point.
 
SpurMeUp said:
What did we learn in our blindness? That those not flourishing within the status quo had no good reason to vote for it; that our prolonged parliamentary chaos derived from an ill-posed yes-no question to which there were a score of answers; .......that any mode of departure, by the government’s own estimate, will shrink the economy; that we have a gift for multiple and bitter division – young against old, cities against the country, graduates against early school-leavers, Scotland and Northern Ireland against England and Wales; that all past, present and future international trade deals or treaties are a compromise with sovereignty, as is our signature on the Paris accords, or our membership of Nato, and that therefore “Take Back Control” was the emptiest, most cynical promise of this sorry season.

To be honest, he seems to have a thorough understanding. While data generalises makes sweeping assumptions, with that caveat: do you feel out of place demographically backing Brexit? Technically you did vote to remain so this might be a moot point.
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Pretty much on the money.
 
SpurMeUp said:
What did we learn in our blindness? That those not flourishing within the status quo had no good reason to vote for it; that our prolonged parliamentary chaos derived from an ill-posed yes-no question to which there were a score of answers; .......that any mode of departure, by the government’s own estimate, will shrink the economy; that we have a gift for multiple and bitter division – young against old, cities against the country, graduates against early school-leavers, Scotland and Northern Ireland against England and Wales; that all past, present and future international trade deals or treaties are a compromise with sovereignty, as is our signature on the Paris accords, or our membership of Nato, and that therefore “Take Back Control” was the emptiest, most cynical promise of this sorry season.

To be honest, he seems to have a thorough understanding. While data generalises makes sweeping assumptions, with that caveat: do you feel out of place demographically backing Brexit? Technically you did vote to remain so this might be a moot point.
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He fails to get past Brexit makes me butthurt therefore it's bad. Hardly surprising - artsy types, by their nature, view the world through their prism of pointless and meaningless emotions. They'd be bricky entertainers if they didn't, but entertainers they are. Don't let an understanding of and talent with language fool you into thinking they are capable outside their little sphere of keeping me entertained.

Take his position on divide. He mentions it as if the very concept of divide is inherently bad, yet it's divide that keeps the North from the South, it's divide that keeps council estates from proper houses, it's divide that keeps criminals from victims.

I back Brexit because it's right and the best thing for the country in general over the long term. I voted against it because it suited me personally at the time. Demographically, I don't think people look hard enough into the details. I know a lot of graduates - most people I spend any real time with are. The popular misconception is that all graduates are Remainders. In my experience there's a larger divide between those who studied theoretical subjects such as archaeology and English lit (they're all remainders) and those who studied engineering/IT and similar subjects who are now involved in running businesses and contributing to society - they're all Leavers. I do see a strong split along the class lines, although not the Leave/Remain one that people seem to think there is. Of those who voted Leave, the working classes seem to have voted that way in the manner Remainders like to caricature the Leave vote - racism, taking our jobs, burkas, etc. Those in the middle and upper classes who voted that way seem to have done so for the reasons I would had it suited me at the time.
 
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