• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

Physical conditioning of players

Only poor teams need to expend so much energy. Good teams can keep possession of the ball.

according to this , arsenal are a poor tea, united under SAF were a poor team, barca are a poor team, lyon of the 90's and early naughties were a poor team, dortmund today a poor team, udinese of a couple of seasons ago were a poor team, tottenham under redknapp were a poor team

yeah i think not
 
These are all Klopp:

[video=youtube;ih1CqRkwLFw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih1CqRkwLFw[/video]
[video=youtube;hEg6oS-dQs4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEg6oS-dQs4[/video]

[video=youtube;hkDR5qoiufQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkDR5qoiufQ[/video]
 
I'd be interested in reading some detail about Klopp's philosophy.

Obviously I understand that at a basic level it's quick tempo and getting the ball forward but it would be interesting to know if and how he builds and plans for the rest periods in games.

Because then it would be like every team really would have rest periods and try to control the energy they expand, but they would go about attacking in different ways when they try and flick the switch.

You see Southampton go full tempo from the beginning and rest when they have a lead...they are another club where by I wonder if they build rest in when they haven't scored yet. It would be very interesting to know.

Just my thoughts, I don't have any concrete evidence that this is his philosophy:

-Loads of high pressing when possible. Keep the opposition from playing, win the ball back high up the pitch, force them to play it long and win most of those long balls. In periods where high pressing isn't possible because you can't do that all game still operate as a unit, 9-10 outfield players back in your own half working for the team.

-A team filled with technical players. At most one or two players with more average techniques. This would be typically be a defensive midfielder and one of the centre backs. But even those players are at a high level for their positions compared to many other clubs. This allows you to keep possession, play through pressure yourself and play what would otherwise be a fairly high risk strategy when playing out from the back.

-A central/deep playmaker. Used to be Sahin, now Gundogan seems to be preferred when fit. Someone to sit deep most of the game and be the hub of the passing. A Pirlo-esque player. Usually with that defensive midfielder next to him in a 4-2-3-1. A player with excellent close control that will move into space, but can receive the ball under pressure and thanks to a very dependable first touch and skill will rarely lose the ball.

-A lone striker, but in Lewandowski he's found what must be close to the perfect lone striker. He can score from just about all kinds of chances, he can hold the ball up, he's reasonably quick and so a threat in behind and he's good with his feet. Used to be Barrios before Lewandowski, seems like the next one after Lewandowski leaves for Bayern will be either Reus or Aubameyang. Reus, Barrios and Aubameyang are all quicker players, not quite as strong as Lewandowski imo. But none of them are "midgets" either. Will be interesting to see what he does when Lewandowski leaves.

-3 attacking midfielders that can interchange positions, are full of movement and are very good on the ball. Seemingly no "set rule" for player types here, Kuba Błaszczykowski is the closest to a typical winger, but he can also cut inside on his left foot. Regardless of if he's playing "inverted wingers" or more classical wingers there's plenty of width provided by the full backs and the wingers aren't your classical Lennon-esque wingers. Once again close control is important, players that can receive the ball in tight spaces and do something useful with it. Grozzkreutz is a bit of a "one one out", but that's a different story.

-Loads of movement, but seemingly within a system. Full backs pushing up, the attacking 3 moving around, making themselves available and one of the deeper midfielders darting forward when attacking seems to be the norm. In general willing to commit players forward, trust the team to win the ball back quickly high up the pitch when it's lost and if that fails hope that the defensive midfielder(s) and (central) defenders will cope with what they then have to do.

-An absolute fearless attitude. Going to Real Madrid away, go there to attack. Get knocked out of the CL group stages first year back in it, go back the next year and play your football again.

-Very hard working players all over the pitch. Absolutely no passengers. No "Berbatov". Press as a unit, defend as a unit, and move off the ball. If in doubt, run more. This is part of why they struggled in their first year in the CL, they don't have the biggest squad and adjusting to two matches every week seemed to take some time.

-A fantastic transfer strategy/approach. If this is Klopp or the DoF/technical director/club, if this is something they'll be able to sustain or a hot streak based at least partly on luck. I don't know. But they've been able to find players that fit their system perfectly at fantastic prices and they've been able to cope with selling some of their best player over and over again.
 
according to this , arsenal are a poor tea, united under SAF were a poor team, barca are a poor team, lyon of the 90's and early naughties were a poor team, dortmund today a poor team, udinese of a couple of seasons ago were a poor team, tottenham under redknapp were a poor team

yeah i think not

I think we both know he means expending so much energy in the first 20-25 mins that by the end of a game we have little/no energy.

Our collapse in 2012 was most probably in part due to lack of steady/consistent conditioning over the course of the WHOLE season.
 
AVBs style was AVBs style, I thought most people were in agreement of what it was...whether or not they liked it is a different matter. And every style has good points and negative points, the short blanket theory, you'll always leave part of your team exposed. So while we may struggle in first halves to score we were usually quite comfortable seeing games out for the win especially towards the end of last season.

The pressing and the style itself didn't look as good in a lot of games this season but I think it's just players settling - they clearly backed AVB and wanted to put into action what he wanted. But when players are not settled or it isn't clicking the style looks bad and flawed, when it does work it looks good and does what it is supposed to do.

What I will say is that I do think we have one of the deepest squads in the league, and can probably play a bit more of a quick tempo game in more matches without destroying intensity later in the season. This is with the caveat that we rotate properly and don't over play favourites, and also that we do build rest periods into games, because the West Ham match was amateurish to be honest.

Sherwood has acknowledged it though and he understands the need to be progressive with the ball when we need to rest as he has said, so I think that will come. I would like to see something a bit more refined and strategic than simply 'score then rest when winning' because we may need to rest when drawing, but I do trust that Sherwood recognises the need to not always be 100 mph.

i must have missed that one, i would have really questioned how people knew that the REASON of playing at a slower pace in first halfs was to be able to recover LATER in the SEASON.

i mean if you are referring to him choosing to play a slow tempo then yes i agree, quite frankly if he wanted to play attacking football at a fast pace and commit more men forward in a game then he would. the man isnt stupid.....even bad managers play faster pace that we do in games. That paint drying performance was be design i choice....i always thought that

but the idea of that pacing your self in a game with such a slow tempo you dont know if you're just modelling in a match in order to be fresh later on in the SEASON?

where did people get that from?

pressing has very little to do with people settling in. sorry BoL but what you said there doesnt make much sense. what part of pressing, which i can tell you first hand should be taught at school boy level, is down to settling? Pressing as an individual is just something some players take pride in, pressing as a unit is something a team does together under explicity instruction. the pressing almost went away this season under AVB

and it got WORSE up until AVB got the royal boot when players are supposed to actually become MORE settled..and we are approaching half way through the season as well


our squad is deep and its filled with people that have been here for more than one season..so has continuity and the 7 new players that were bought very rarely played at the same time so it isnt like the 1st 11 is saturated with strangers.

we can handle this, we just need a new personality that the players can get behind

and i dont believe in player sound bites. what they say i normally assume has the high posssibility for bull****. i prefer actions in 90 minutes
 
I think we both know he means expending so much energy in the first 20-25 mins that by the end of a game we have little/no energy.

Our collapse in 2012 was most probably in part due to lack of steady/consistent conditioning over the course of the WHOLE season.

or it could have been a manager that had his eye on england?

bad form?

low confience?

lack of real direction?
 
I'd imagine Barcelona would have lost to West Ham on Wednesday under Sherwood's instructions to play 100mph 'up-and-at-em' football.

It was just reckless.

As I mentioned else where it was to try and win the fans over by playing attacking football, 442 is a dead formation.

was never going to work.
 
i must have missed that one, i would have really questioned how people knew that the REASON of playing at a slower pace in first halfs was to be able to recover LATER in the SEASON.

i mean if you are referring to him choosing to play a slow tempo then yes i agree, quite frankly if he wanted to play attacking football at a fast pace and commit more men forward in a game then he would. the man isnt stupid.....even bad managers play faster pace that we do in games. That paint drying performance was be design i choice....i always thought that

but the idea of that pacing your self in a game with such a slow tempo you dont know if you're just modelling in a match in order to be fresh later on in the SEASON?

where did people get that from?

pressing has very little to do with people settling in. sorry BoL but what you said there doesnt make much sense. what part of pressing, which i can tell you first hand should be taught at school boy level, is down to settling? Pressing as an individual is just something some players take pride in, pressing as a unit is something a team does together under explicity instruction. the pressing almost went away this season under AVB

and it got WORSE up until AVB got the royal boot when players are supposed to actually become MORE settled..and we are approaching half way through the season as well


our squad is deep and its filled with people that have been here for more than one season..so has continuity and the 7 new players that were bought very rarely played at the same time so it isnt like the 1st 11 is saturated with strangers.

we can handle this, we just need a new personality that the players can get behind

and i dont believe in player sound bites. what they say i normally assume has the high posssibility for bull****. i prefer actions in 90 minutes

I agree that the style we saw was the style he wanted, so sometimes when it wasn't clicking we would scrape through against Hull, or take an almighty hammering, or also create lots of chances and win games or deserve to win them (e.g. Man United, Cardiff, Norwich, Sunderland, Fulham).

Over a season, I think it's fair enough to say that if you've managed the players exertions so that they haven't gone hammer and tongs and burnt out, they are more likely to be able to sustain the intensity when they need it towards the business end. It's not the only factor, as conditioning will play a big part of it, but let's say we try and play like we did against West Ham every game for the next 3 months, I'd fully expect us to have a worse final 2 months of the season because of it.

I'm not saying pressing takes settling, I'm saying that the whole system, to carry it off at an elite level competitive environment, takes settling. So it can look like pressing has gone but it could also be for example because we aren't connecting passes where we should be, meaning players are leaving exposed gaps in big parts of the pitch that are easy to be exploited, that we can't get near to, which leads to goals. Settling would lead to consistency.

People are often saying 'it was getting worse under AVB' but to me we should have been showing him patience during this first 6 months before judging him more harshly after that. What we saw was inconsistency, not a 6 game losing streak. We took a hammering against West Ham, we recovered. We took a hammering against Emirates Marketing Project, but we recovered.

I've said earlier in this thread or another that due to the depth of our squad we can play more of a quick tempo style as long as we rotate properly and don't run 'favourites' into the ground, and also that we build rest periods into matches and be strategic about it. AVB apparently didn't rotate much at Porto, and his methods may have been designed to get the best out of a thinner squad that was higher on quality (which is what he wanted hear reportedly) rather than a massively deep squad with effectively 2 good teams.
 
or it could have been a manager that had his eye on england?

bad form?

low confience?

lack of real direction?

It's easy to attribute this to intangibles such as the above when we don't know any better, just like some have attributed West Ham scoring 2 against us in the week to bad luck or not being quite good enough in the air or something else.

I think what made AVB quite ahead of his time, and what a few other coaches have realised, is that intensity is the thing that wins points. If you can manage a player's intensity, you can control where you gain the advantage, so you can create a one on one situation where you might have the burst of acceleration to create a real clear cut chance, rather than the half/quarter chances we created during that awful run under Harry. I used to completely bang the 'our form collapsed because of England' drum but now I don't believe that. I think Harry was a tw@t for the way he handled it but I don't think we were managed strategically to stay the course over a season.
 
Don't overcomplicate things. With a high quality squad it should be possible to rest players, rather than playing them in too many consecutive games.

Redknapp didn't rest players, he felt he needed to play the same guys over and over again but they burnt out and were playing knackered and half injured game after game.

AVB had key defensive injuries like Rose, Kaboul, Capoue, Sandro, then Verts got tired, all of which left the defence exposed. But he was also playing the most slow and boring and ineffective football.

For the last couple of years we struggled along and without Bale we looked terrible, absolutely lacklustre. It wasn't resting for 89 minutes, it was playing poorly for 89 minutes.
 
Just my thoughts, I don't have any concrete evidence that this is his philosophy:

-Loads of high pressing when possible. Keep the opposition from playing, win the ball back high up the pitch, force them to play it long and win most of those long balls. In periods where high pressing isn't possible because you can't do that all game still operate as a unit, 9-10 outfield players back in your own half working for the team.

-A team filled with technical players. At most one or two players with more average techniques. This would be typically be a defensive midfielder and one of the centre backs. But even those players are at a high level for their positions compared to many other clubs. This allows you to keep possession, play through pressure yourself and play what would otherwise be a fairly high risk strategy when playing out from the back.

-A central/deep playmaker. Used to be Sahin, now Gundogan seems to be preferred when fit. Someone to sit deep most of the game and be the hub of the passing. A Pirlo-esque player. Usually with that defensive midfielder next to him in a 4-2-3-1. A player with excellent close control that will move into space, but can receive the ball under pressure and thanks to a very dependable first touch and skill will rarely lose the ball.

-A lone striker, but in Lewandowski he's found what must be close to the perfect lone striker. He can score from just about all kinds of chances, he can hold the ball up, he's reasonably quick and so a threat in behind and he's good with his feet. Used to be Barrios before Lewandowski, seems like the next one after Lewandowski leaves for Bayern will be either Reus or Aubameyang. Reus, Barrios and Aubameyang are all quicker players, not quite as strong as Lewandowski imo. But none of them are "midgets" either. Will be interesting to see what he does when Lewandowski leaves.

-3 attacking midfielders that can interchange positions, are full of movement and are very good on the ball. Seemingly no "set rule" for player types here, Kuba Błaszczykowski is the closest to a typical winger, but he can also cut inside on his left foot. Regardless of if he's playing "inverted wingers" or more classical wingers there's plenty of width provided by the full backs and the wingers aren't your classical Lennon-esque wingers. Once again close control is important, players that can receive the ball in tight spaces and do something useful with it. Grozzkreutz is a bit of a "one one out", but that's a different story.

-Loads of movement, but seemingly within a system. Full backs pushing up, the attacking 3 moving around, making themselves available and one of the deeper midfielders darting forward when attacking seems to be the norm. In general willing to commit players forward, trust the team to win the ball back quickly high up the pitch when it's lost and if that fails hope that the defensive midfielder(s) and (central) defenders will cope with what they then have to do.

-An absolute fearless attitude. Going to Real Madrid away, go there to attack. Get knocked out of the CL group stages first year back in it, go back the next year and play your football again.

-Very hard working players all over the pitch. Absolutely no passengers. No "Berbatov". Press as a unit, defend as a unit, and move off the ball. If in doubt, run more. This is part of why they struggled in their first year in the CL, they don't have the biggest squad and adjusting to two matches every week seemed to take some time.

-A fantastic transfer strategy/approach. If this is Klopp or the DoF/technical director/club, if this is something they'll be able to sustain or a hot streak based at least partly on luck. I don't know. But they've been able to find players that fit their system perfectly at fantastic prices and they've been able to cope with selling some of their best player over and over again.


T'riffic post.
 
Back