Performances over a season

[DeanoAustin]

I think that BOL puts forward a really interesting theory. Obvioulsy GB agrees that this is the way AVB's mind works, and to be honest I wouldn't be surprised. Also, I dont really give too much of a sh*t about the hammering teams (although once in a while would be nice), if we are regularly beating teams and starting winning silverware I'd be happy.

Finally, and this is something I've not seen from anyone on here (I may have missed it) - Emirates Marketing Project thrashed us 5-0 at home last season, and we still had our best points tally ever.

I am still behind AVB, lets make a judgement in May. I for one would take a couple of Cup wins and fifth / sixth place

We beat them 3-1.

 

[Hotspur]

With all due respect mate, **** you. At least put some effort into responding, try to challenge some points.

Football is not rocket science, all this over analyzing is a waste of time.

 

[Gutter Boy]

You're over complicating the game.

AVB and his coaches spend hours a week planning all this kind of stuff. His background in opposition scouting means they'll analyse opponents in incredible details and plan this kind of stuff. They'll decide in advance that the time to get at Southampton is between the 20-30 minute mark, whereas Swansea are most vulnerable in the last 15 etc.

I wonder how a manager will get his 'save yourself' tactic across to a bunch of macaronic footballers anyway? like what could he possibly say to convince his team that it's best if you take it easy until later on in the second half and then go at them. In reality most would come to the conclusion that he's off his head.

By recruiting players who are a bit less macaronic, or who have been schooled in a system where this is normal. Note how 7 of our 8 signings in the last two windows have been from mainland European clubs. Note how Sandro and Walker are the only two Redknapp signings left in our team.

You realise that adds up to 77.5% right?

Yeah - and the idea is to give us stamina over the whole campaign.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Mate, you really aren't. To give you an example with direct quotes from you both:





You're saying, just wear the opposition out, don't expend too much energy and when the opposition is at their weakest, hit them.

GB is saying, get the game won after 60 mins and then plan for the next one.

If you were saying the same thing, then you'd still be trying to win the game when you're planning for the next one. That's a whole load of contradiction right there.

I can buy into Gutter Boy's theory. Get the game won, sit back, conserve energy. I could cope with that even if it meant dull last half hours of games. But that's not what we do. For example, our win against Hull was in the 80th minute and our win against Cardiff was in the 90th.

We are saying the same thing. Seriously. Our idea of AVB's thinking comes from the same book we will both have read. As GB says above me, we decide on the appropriate times to hit teams, and pick them off in short bursts. Other than those points within matches, we are not over extending ourselves. And if we have got the game won with 2 goals, we will go back to resting with the ball.

 

[Lilywhite]

I think calling it the master plan makes it sound a bit...I dunno, just building kt up to knock it down. I do absolutely believe that is the plan of the staff at the club though. It's not as if we suddenly forget how to play football against smaller teams, I think that process is managed. It is a byproduct of AVBs tactics, because I don't think he wants us going full pelt from minute one against those kinds of opposition. It's all well and good doing that, but if we do fail to score and we are more tired within the game, we are then at the mercy of the opposition that has sucked up the pressure. I think it's much better to overwhelm them in the moments when we choose - it is often in our case around the 65 minute mark at home just before the opposition makes subs when they will be at their most ragged, and it is at this point where we hit them. I much prefer this to the old approach, blitzing teams often enough but when it doesn't work we bemoan how unlucky we were game after game for weeks at a time.

I don't think we collapsed last year for what it's worth, we had a good end to the season it's just Arsenal and Chelsea were better, in Arsenal's case absolute phenomenal. It's because they prepare as a top club to perform at the business end of the year and it's never really in any doubt, and it's what we need to do to compete.

Look at our game against Sunderland at home on the final day. All season we had been playing at a slow pace from kick off but in this game we blitzed them. The idea was to put the pressure on Arsenal at Saudi Sportswashing Machine and make them chase a result knowing we were ahead. AVB was extra furious we didn't get the penalty for the foul on Bale inside a few minutes because his plan would have taken effect. My point is we showed we can turn it on when we want.

It didn't go to plan against Saudi Sportswashing Machine, West Ham and City, Saudi Sportswashing Machine I think we were unlucky but the others were not good. But again it's not about being within ourselves, just playing in an intelligent way.

I think Arsenal and Liverpool will have dips. They are coming out to blitz teams at the moment and I don think that can be kept up. If they do it, then they truly have excellent managers above and beyond anyone else...I just don't think that is the case.

We haven't looked great in a number of games but again, I was just walking past the Sky update on the big screen at Waterloo...supposedly we laboured to a win. It's funny though, so many times we are apparently laboured but still win games. I think it is designed.

In reply to the first bold bit: that isn't true. In the last two seasons Arsenal have had very good run-ins to the season, but their previous record suggests they don't prepare for that to be the case at the expense of bad starts. Remember in 2008 and 2011 they were in the title race until around March, then completely dropped off.

Second bold bit: so what you are suggesting is we played within ourselves/playing intelligently all/most of the season just so that we... could blitz a Sunderland team that had nothing to play for on the final day? Well, if we're taking risks with 37 matches just to ensure (and even that came last-minute due to Bale magic) we win the final one, that isn't a very safe approach.

Ultimately, though, do you really prefer seeing us play this way than we did in, say, 2011/12? The chances are we will get less points playing this way than we did in that season, because you can no longer just expect to play at 70% and win games in this league, it is more open and more difficult than ever. The difference is we play much worse football than we did in, say, 2011/12. And if we are to choose to play such dull football, I'd rather we did so if only we could get 95 points from it like Chelsea did in 2005. Instead, I'd be absolutely flabbergasted were we to surpass 70 again with this method.

 

[DeanoAustin]

We are saying the same thing. Seriously. Our idea of AVB's thinking comes from the same book we will both have read. As GB says above me, we decide on the appropriate times to hit teams, and pick them off in short bursts. Other than those points within matches, we are not over extending ourselves. And if we have got the game won with 2 goals, we will go back to resting with the ball.

You've articulated two very different points as per my previous post.

Let's take Swansea as an example. They've conceded goals in the following minutes:

01 - 10: 2
10 - 20: 1
20 - 30: 1
30 - 40: 3
40 - 50:
50 - 60: 2
60 - 70: 3
70 - 80: 1
80 - 90: 3

When exactly should you plan to play against them? That's quite a spread.

 

[Gutter Boy]

In reply to the first bold bit: that isn't true. In the last two seasons Arsenal have had very good run-ins to the season, but their previous record suggests they don't prepare for that to be the case at the expense of bad starts. Remember in 2008 and 2011 they were in the title race until around March, then completely dropped off.

Second bold bit: so what you are suggesting is we played within ourselves/playing intelligently all/most of the season just so that we... could blitz a Sunderland team that had nothing to play for on the final day? Well, if we're taking risks with 37 matches just to ensure (and even that came last-minute due to Bale magic) we win the final one, that isn't a very safe approach.

Ultimately, though, do you really prefer seeing us play this way than we did in, say, 2011/12? The chances are we will get less points playing this way than we did in that season, because you can no longer just expect to play at 70% and win games in this league, it is more open and more difficult than ever. The difference is we play much worse football than we did in, say, 2011/12. And if we are to choose to play such dull football, I'd rather we did so if only we could get 95 points from it like Chelsea did in 2005. Instead, I'd be absolutely flabbergasted were we to surpass 70 again with this method.

Barcelona and Spain have been beating all-comers for a few years playing this way. We've not quite clicked yet, but resting with the ball, patient build-up, probing, suffocating opponents etc. is exactly what they do.

Anyone who is complaining about us being turgid needs to actually sit through all 90 minutes of a standard Barcelona league match. They are anything but the cavalier swashbucklers we've been in our fleeting good moments over the past 20 years.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Barcelona and Spain have been beating all-comers for a few years playing this way. We've not quite clicked yet, but resting with the ball, patient build-up, probing, suffocating opponents etc. is exactly what they do.

Anyone who is complaining about us being turgid needs to actually sit through all 90s minutes of a standard Barcelona league match. They are anything but the cavalier swashbucklers we've been in our fleeting good moments over the past 20 years.

They also don't get stuffed 6-0, they also create proper chances (not the speculative 30 yarders that only increase our chances:goals ratio), they also don't struggle to score anything other than penalties, they also don't get beat 3-0 at home by the likes of West Ham.

Fair enough, we aren't Barcelona. But we do have the players to be doing better than we are. That's the crux of it here. We are under performing under AVB and, truth be told, we have been for a long time.

 

[Gutter Boy]

They also don't get stuffed 6-0, they also create proper chances (not the speculative 30 yarders that only increase our chances:goals ratio), they also don't struggle to score anything other than penalties, they also don't get beat 3-0 at home by the likes of West Ham.

Fair enough, we aren't Barcelona. But we do have the players to be doing better than we are. That's the crux of it here. We are under performing under AVB and, truth be told, we have been for a long time.

Did Barcelona become like that overnight? Or did they back Guardiola's vision and let him build something?

We've had 2.5 bad results this season.

 

[Kingdawson]

Did Barcelona become like that overnight? Or did they back Guardiola's vision and let him build something?

We've had 2.5 bad results this season.

Arsenal, City, West Ham, Saudi Sportswashing Machine? what are you talking about?

 

[Gutter Boy]

Arsenal, City, West Ham, Saudi Sportswashing Machine? what are you talking about?

Arsenal wasn't especially bad, considering what they've done to everyone else too.

Saudi Sportswashing Machine wasn't good, but we didn't play badly.

City and West Ham were the two shockers.

 

[africanspurs]

Did Barcelona become like that overnight? Or did they back Guardiola's vision and let him build something?

We've had 2.5 bad results this season.

this is something i dont understand

Barcelona were a supreme team under Rijkaard as well

and as far as overnight goes, didnt davids literally transform their fates overnight then the following season they started getting rid of the dead weights and playing the youngers technical players.

its not like Pep did all this by himself over the last 50 years

 

[africanspurs]

Arsenal wasn't especially bad, considering what they've done to everyone else too.

Saudi Sportswashing Machine wasn't good, but we didn't play badly.

City and West Ham were the two shockers.

you just shifted the post

you used bad results cause you didnt want to use bad performances,,,that would be a lot more

and with bad results they've been given to you...cant pick and choose which you want like that




too hostile??

 

[DeanoAustin]

Did Barcelona become like that overnight? Or did they back Guardiola's vision and let him build something?

We've had 2.5 bad results this season.

Comparisons with Barcelona are a bit silly but they went on a 20 match unbeaten run under Guardiola towards the start of his reign and won La Liga, the Copa del Rey and the Champions League in his first season as manager. So it was pretty much as overnight as it could have been.

We were beaten by City 6-0. That's a bad result.
We were beaten by Saudi Sportswashing Machine at home. That's a bad result.
We were beaten 3-0 by West Ham at home. That's a bad result.
We were beaten 1-0 by Arsenal. That's a bad result albeit not as bad as the other 3 defeats.

That's 3.5 bad results.

We've been really poor in other games and scraped wins against Hull, Cardiff, Palace and Swansea and that's nearly as worrying. At the start of Santini's reign, we got some decent results with poor performances (Chelsea, Saudi Sportswashing Machine and Everton spring to mind). However, that doesn't last forever and within a few weeks we were losing, with similarly dreary performances, to Bolton and Fulham. The same thing will happen with AVB if we continue on the road we are on.

Mark my words, as we are today, there is more chance of our results getting worse than our performances getting better. If we start losing to the likes of Sunderland and Fulham, will you still want to stick with him?

 

[Baleforce]

I don't think Barca are a good comparison but their renaissance started before Guardiola took over, he built upon the work done by Rijkaard from 2003 onwards.

 

[scaramanga]

Football is not rocket science, all this over analyzing is a waste of time.

That, in one sentence, sums up why English footballers, English managers and most of English football are sh1t.

 

[ALtottenham_hotspur]

I don't see any reason why not. It's like instead of playing a whole game at 85%, we play 3/4s at 70% and 1/4 at 100%. But when we are playing at 70% we are purposely tiring out the opponents so when we do turn it up it's even more devastating.

Earlier in the season people were noting how we were winning games late on. But like the Liverpool sides of the 70s and 80s, who did that routinely, it was no coincidence.




It has a horrible title in the English translation - it's called Special Too (http://www.amazon.co.uk/André-Villas-Boas-Luis-Miguel-Pereira/dp/1905928084)

Thanks gutter boy just ordered it now, should be an interesting book

 

[Armchair Expert]

That, in one sentence, sums up why English footballers, English managers and most of English football are sh1t.

Yeah Xavi and Messi are all about the stats :ross:

That's what made them great, they analysed stats :lol:

 

[scaramanga]

Yeah Xavi and Messi are all about the stats :ross:

That's what made them great, they analysed stats :lol:

What about the people that coached them. Do you think they ever looked at stats? Or did they just pretend that football was in this little 1980s bubble where nothing ever changes and there's nothing in that big bad world out there to scare us?

 

[ALtottenham_hotspur]

You've articulated two very different points as per my previous post.

Let's take Swansea as an example. They've conceded goals in the following minutes:

01 - 10: 2
10 - 20: 1
20 - 30: 1
30 - 40: 3
40 - 50:
50 - 60: 2
60 - 70: 3
70 - 80: 1
80 - 90: 3

When exactly should you plan to play against them? That's quite a spread.

If I was to plan exactly the best time to attack Swansea I would say 60th min and the last 10 mins. My problem with this is I dont think football can be played with machine or mathematical style, confidence plays a massive part in football I believe more than people realise.

If I use Hull as an example, Spurs play Hull at White Hart Lane, AVB has come up with a plan that attacking Hull in the 70th minute is best because this is when Hull have conceded most of their goals. Now if I was playing for Hull I would see the Spurs game and think christ today is going to be hard, this team have spent 100m plus in the summer and just missed out of champs league last season, we are going to have to work hard to get any sort of result from this game. So the game starts Hull manage to get to half time and its still 0-0. Spurs haven't really caused us many problems, infact we have caused them a few problems too. My confidence would be sky high I would be saying we can nick this today, as the 2nd half continues and it gets closer and closer to full time and its 0-0, the crowd now starts moaning because Spurs are struggling to break us down, again more confidence to me.

If football was played with robots I could fully agree with AVB's strategy sadly for him its not, maybe its because AVB never played football at the top level he doesnt understand the pressure of playing in front of crowds.