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Performances over a season

He rotates well in the Europa. Giving players ten or fifteen minutes in a match a few days before another is no big deal, even with Soldado I think scientifically the recovery time is 3 days and means we should be ok for Sunday, but if we had went to Tromso to smash them 5-0 to prove a point, I don't think we would perform as well on Sunday. And similarly, over exertion is something that will take it's toll over a season, as opposed to controlled exertions which are more easily manageable.

We did kick on, we got good results against a lot of teams. Sunderland was a good performance, Wigan wasn't a bad result considering they are a team that plays to be at their maximum at the business end (also not entirely surprising they beat Emirates Marketing Project in the final). We lost to Liverpool due to stupid mistakes but we performed well on their ground. We got results at the business end, but Arsenal had the slightly easier run and were just a bit better than us unfortunately - their run was ridiculous. Let's not also forget though a strong performance at Stamford Bridge.

Emirates Marketing Project was a sterile game from both teams until we made the change and ramped up the pressure, they didn't know what hit them.

Are you actually countering any specific points as to why you don't believe this is going on within our club, or any club? Do you believe teams should go full pelt all game every game? Do you actually think trying to manage exertions is a sackable offence?

I'd rather Harry's strategy in the EL. Give the kids a run. The likes of Tom Carroll. Not bring Verts and Soldado all the way to Norway to play on a plastic pitch in freezing temperatures. Is it a coincidence that we've had some stinking results after the Europa League this season?

Sunderland was not a good performance. This is team that was subsequently shown to be dysfunctional, whose season was over, who'd been tonked 6-1 against Aston Villa in their previous away game and we needed a spectacular goal in the 90th minute. The Wigan result was also poor given that they won 1 of their last 8 league games and lost 4. The Southampton performance was also poor and we were very, very lucky to win thanks to Bale again. As for Fulham...

The sterility of our performances isn't some master plan. Look at Fergie's United. Look at Wenger's Arsenal. They did it at the business end of the season but they didn't mortgage the start of their seasons to do that. They also got the points under their belt before taking their foot off the gas and conserving energy rather than the other way around.

Failing to meet expectations is a sackable offence and currently AVB is not meeting expectations.
 
Specifically relating to AVB, in his book there's an awful lot about how he manages a squad with the season in mind.

It's why he believes in 'resting in possession' and then picking off teams in short bursts, subbing wingers for CMs for the last ¼ of matches to completely control possession, and that 2-0 is the perfect result and anything else is expending too much energy. At Porto he was often praised/criticised for starting to prepare for the next match after 60 mins, rather than going on to hammer teams. But then his approach meant they lost once all season across 4 competitions.

Yes but can you do that in a competitive league? I mean Porto haven't lost a home league game since 2008/09.
 
Specifically relating to AVB, in his book there's an awful lot about how he manages a squad with the season in mind.

It's why he believes in 'resting in possession' and then picking off teams in short bursts, subbing wingers for CMs for the last ¼ of matches to completely control possession, and that 2-0 is the perfect result and anything else is expending too much energy. At Porto he was often praised/criticised for starting to prepare for the next match after 60 mins, rather than going on to hammer teams. But then his approach meant they lost once all season across 4 competitions.

Sounds an interesting read, whats the book called?

I would agree that the above all sounds like a great plan if it wasn't for the fact I pay money (a lot of money) to watch Spurs and I want it to be an enjoyable experience, if after 60mins Spurs are 2-0 up should I make my way home because AVB is already planning for the next game? I don't want Spurs to be a machine that turns up keeps hold of the ball for 60mins and then in a 20 minute spell attacks. I'm sure we would win more trophy's but again I want to have an enjoyable experience.
 
Sounds an interesting read, whats the book called?

I would agree that the above all sounds like a great plan if it wasn't for the fact I pay money (a lot of money) to watch Spurs and I want it to be an enjoyable experience, if after 60mins Spurs are 2-0 up should I make my way home because AVB is already planning for the next game? I don't want Spurs to be a machine that turns up keeps hold of the ball for 60mins and then in a 20 minute spell attacks. I'm sure we would win more trophy's but again I want to have an enjoyable experience.

It would solve the problem of traffic on the High Road.....
 
Specifically relating to AVB, in his book there's an awful lot about how he manages a squad with the season in mind.

It's why he believes in 'resting in possession' and then picking off teams in short bursts, subbing wingers for CMs for the last ¼ of matches to completely control possession, and that 2-0 is the perfect result and anything else is expending too much energy. At Porto he was often praised/criticised for starting to prepare for the next match after 60 mins, rather than going on to hammer teams. But then his approach meant they lost once all season across 4 competitions.

If I'm reading this right, it's a very different strategy to the one BOL is proposing.
 
I wanted to write this as following tonight, you can tell a lot of people are underwhelmed by the performance. It's not about AVB specifically, but is about what I believe he is trying to do, but also what other managers are trying to do. Basically I believe that clubs decide certain points in a season where they expect good form, or prepare the team for good form, and certain points where they reduce their expectations in the hope of eeking out the extra few % when they want it to matter.

It's a concept we've heard about fairly often. Last year it was reported quite widely that Barca tailor their preparations so they come down a slight level in terms of fitness just before the business end of the season really kicks in, and then they amp it up again from there. Obviously Man United are known for being the kings of the run-in, and I don't think it's all because of the mental aspect that they thought they could do it, and more about the fact they were prepared in a way to help them achieve it. Margins are fine and if clubs can manage it so they can have an advantage over other teams at certain points in the season they will do so. Wigan are also notorious for performing late in the year under Martinez, and people put it down to some whimsical element, but really they were prepared to do it that way.

The crux of my point is this: AVB takes these ideas and inputs them into strategies not just to plan over a season, and also in game. So, over a season there are games where our 'effort' or rather our over extension of effort is reduced. This is because we feel we can get the result without going full pelt, so that we are better able to compete in the bigger/tougher games when we need to. A lot of people (myself included) thought that our squad was simply more suited to away games, but this season I don't think it necessarily is, I think we are just prepared to go full pelt for longer periods when away in order to maximise our chances. So, home games against lesser teams, and Carling Cup games last season for example, we don't extend ourselves as much as we possibly could. It doesn't mean we can't perform well in games that mean less, just that in terms of finding the margins where we can, the process is managed so we can get them where they matter.

With relevance to tonight - lesser games in the Europa League - I absolutely expected the type of performance we got. And it gives me confidence that we are being prepared as a top side would be, ready to face a big game on Sunday. We didn't extend ourselves more than needed to and we got the job done. That's what a professional club does. That's what any top side does. However a top side might lose a game like this too - for example Chelsea losing to Basel is likely to be as much about the fact that over extended against West Ham and I don't think it comes as a great surprise to Mourinho that they didn't beat Basel. Tonight for us, I don't think the players were particularly nervous, I think they were simply doing what was asked of them.

So within games, the same thinking applies, and with reference to AVB, his whole system is designed to give us the control so we can play a match, and a season, on our terms. We didn't need to over extend ourselves tonight. People have commented that 'we managed to come alive for a 20 minute spell' for example but I don't think that is coincidence, I think it is completely by design. We don't need to over do it in a game like this but just to finish off the job, we will increase the pressure when we decide, because we have conserved the energy, and over run them at a point in the game of our choosing.

We are able to do this because of our control of the ball. People may say it's meaningless possession if we aren't creating chances but I'd argue for the purposes of this thread, it's not meaningless if we are conserving energy and waiting for moments in the game to ramp up the pressure. The high line allows us to win the ball back quickly and the short passing at a slow tempo means we can rest with the ball. I may have been wrong in thinking that the t**gid football was a stage to get us somewhere else. I'm now thinking that while we do need to get slightly better at it, if we were to be playing a different system that required more risk taking we would be doing it by now, AVB has certainly had enough time. But we do it the way we do to exert maximum control. We play nice football when we need to - the second goal tonight is proof. We always have spells in a game where suddenly we come alive, and I don't think it is by accident. It's by design.

I don't think AVB is the only manager thinking this way, but he's probably the only manager doing it the exact way that he is trying to do it. I think Martinez for example is an advocate of the approach - always appearing to get better performances against big teams but sometimes looking like having sterile possession against smaller ones. I also think most clubs plan their points over a season, and also base it on where they expect other clubs to have their strong periods. So I think Liverpool and Arsenal planned to have strong starts given that they had the most settled squads and therefore an easier task of making sure they got the results they planned for. Southampton probably the same. I would not be surprised if ourselves however planned for a dip early on where we were letting players acclimatise, but that our level will increase in the coming months. It will also not surprise me in the slightest when Arsenal and Liverpool have their dips in the coming months too. I think it will happen, because no club can expect their players to go at the maximum for the entire season. The smart move is to control when you want to be at the maximum.

So I think this is why AVB is rated. He has the backing of people within football because this approach makes sense. It may not always be pretty, certainly against teams lesser than ourselves, but it's the smart play if it means we can get better performances in the games that matter, and in the business end of the season. We didn't get a result against Arsenal earlier on, but this can likely be because they have planned for a strong start, and their players were more settled and so were able to carry it off better than ours. City was a calamity of errors that meant we couldn't play the game anywhere near our terms.

People may say 'sod all this, I just want to be entertained, why can't we play at the maximum every game?' and to them I would say it's a fair enough request, but I think what seperates the highly regarded modern manager from the old school (even recent old school) is this difference. It's preparing the squad intelligently in terms of fitness and intensity so they increase the chances of getting performances when they need them. Our 11/12 season is a prime example. We were awesome for the first few months but couldn't perform when it mattered. I don't think Harry 'knows' any less about tactics, but I think this is probably a consideration that perhaps he didn't pay too much mind in that season.

Anyway - sorry for the length, I just wanted to try to articulate what I think AVB's approach is, and why we may be seeing lackluster performances against smaller teams (broadly speaking). And why I believe it is a smart play and the mark of a club that will compete. I fully expect us to perform well against Man United on Sunday. Whether we win is another matter, but I back us to perform and look good doing it.

Such a well articulated post but it's let down by the actual point you're making being complete nonsense. In fact i would go as far as to say i've never read something so bizzare in a long time (GB saying we controlled the midfield against City runs it close tbf).

So we're saving ourselves for the big games? that's your conclusion as to why we haven't been putting in good performances (especially at home) since the AVB has taken over? we're not playing well because AVB has told the players to 'save themselves' in lesser games in order to perform in the bigger games.

Well if that's the case then he's the biggest idiot known to mankind. What you fail to grasp when comparing AVB to Martinez's Wigan is that Wigan are a rather ****e team therefore they have at least 15 teams that are considered better than them so that's 15 teams they're 'saving themselves' for. We are probably the 5th best team in the league so we're sacrificing 15 other teams in the league in order to perform and get a good result against 4 teams?

Even if AVB considers these lesser teams winnable games therefore we don't have to go in 100%, the fact that he's still willing to take the risk with these 'lesser teams (assuming you are right in what his plan is) in order to get results in 8 games from 38 means he's plain and simply the thickest manager to ever manage us...actually i would go as far as to say he's the thickest manager to ever be a manager.
 
Yes but can you do that in a competitive league? I mean Porto haven't lost a home league game since 2008/09.

I don't see any reason why not. It's like instead of playing a whole game at 85%, we play 3/4s at 70% and 1/4 at 100%. But when we are playing at 70% we are purposely tiring out the opponents so when we do turn it up it's even more devastating.

Earlier in the season people were noting how we were winning games late on. But like the Liverpool sides of the 70s and 80s, who did that routinely, it was no coincidence.


Sounds an interesting read, whats the book called?

I would agree that the above all sounds like a great plan if it wasn't for the fact I pay money (a lot of money) to watch Spurs and I want it to be an enjoyable experience, if after 60mins Spurs are 2-0 up should I make my way home because AVB is already planning for the next game? I don't want Spurs to be a machine that turns up keeps hold of the ball for 60mins and then in a 20 minute spell attacks. I'm sure we would win more trophy's but again I want to have an enjoyable experience.

It has a horrible title in the English translation - it's called Special Too (http://www.amazon.co.uk/André-Villas-Boas-Luis-Miguel-Pereira/dp/1905928084)

Yeah - that's the way it's going to be. No spanking teams in dead rubbers like Arsenal always do.

IIRC there's something in the book about how AVB made a pact with the Porto fans (when they showed early season frustrations) that that's how it would be, but that it would be for the greater good. They obviously went on to win the treble.
 
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If I'm reading this right, it's a very different strategy to the one BOL is proposing.

It's all about having a strategy though, rather than going out all-guns-blazing in everything.

- Some games we'll win early and then suffocate the match
- Others we'll wear teams out and hit at the end
- And others we'll just try and coast through the whole match without expending energy
 
No, it's the same.

No it's not. As I read it:

Gutter Boy is saying, get to 60 minutes and have the game won and then take the foot off the gas and plan for the next game.

You're saying, take the foot off the gas from the start, wait for 65 minutes or some other moment later in the game and pick your opponent off.
 
It's all about having a strategy though, rather than going out all-guns-blazing in everything.

- Some games we'll win early and then suffocate the match
- Others we'll wear teams out and hit at the end
- And others we'll just try and coast through the whole match without expending energy

You're over complicating the game.
 
I wonder how a manager will get his 'save yourself' tactic across to a bunch of macaronic footballers anyway? like what could he possibly say to convince his team that it's best if you take it easy until later on in the second half and then go at them. In reality most would come to the conclusion that he's off his head.
 
I don't see any reason why not. It's like instead of playing a whole game at 85%, we play 3/4s at 70% and 1/4 at 100%. But when we are playing at 70% we are purposely tiring out the opponents so when we do turn it up it's even more devastating.

Earlier in the season people were noting how we were winning games late on. But like the Liverpool sides of the 70s and 80s, who did that routinely, it was no coincidence.




It has a horrible title in the English translation - it's called Special Too (http://www.amazon.co.uk/André-Villas-Boas-Luis-Miguel-Pereira/dp/1905928084)

Yeah - that's the way it's going to be. No spanking teams in dead rubbers like Arsenal always do.

IIRC there's something in the book about how AVB made a pact with the Porto fans (when they showed early season frustrations) that that's how it would be, but that it would be for the greater good. They obviously went on to win the treble.

You realise that adds up to 77.5% right?
 
No it's not. As I read it:

Gutter Boy is saying, get to 60 minutes and have the game won and then take the foot off the gas and plan for the next game.

You're saying, take the foot off the gas from the start, wait for 65 minutes or some other moment later in the game and pick your opponent off.

We are both saying the same thing. Pick the moment, pick the opponent off, and then rest with the ball.

I'll come back in more detail later - but just so people know the strategy being advocated here isn't 'throw 85% of games' as some people are making out.
 
I wonder how a manager will get his 'save yourself' tactic across to a bunch of macaronic footballers anyway? like what could he possibly say to convince his team that it's best if you take it easy until later on in the second half and then go at them. In reality most would come to the conclusion that he's off his head.

I reckon AVB has only explained 70% to them right now and it waiting to step up to explaining at 100% effectiveness later in the season. I mean he might go hoarse.
 
We are both saying the same thing. Pick the moment, pick the opponent off, and then rest with the ball.

Mate, you really aren't. To give you an example with direct quotes from you both:

I think it's much better to overwhelm them in the moments when we choose - it is often in our case around the 65 minute mark at home just before the opposition makes subs when they will be at their most ragged, and it is at this point where we hit them.

Gutter Boy said:
At Porto he was often praised/criticised for starting to prepare for the next match after 60 mins, rather than going on to hammer teams. But then his approach meant they lost once all season across 4 competitions.

You're saying, just wear the opposition out, don't expend too much energy and when the opposition is at their weakest, hit them.

GB is saying, get the game won after 60 mins and then plan for the next one.

If you were saying the same thing, then you'd still be trying to win the game when you're planning for the next one. That's a whole load of contradiction right there.

I can buy into Gutter Boy's theory. Get the game won, sit back, conserve energy. I could cope with that even if it meant dull last half hours of games. But that's not what we do. For example, our win against Hull was in the 80th minute and our win against Cardiff was in the 90th.
 
I think that BOL puts forward a really interesting theory. Obvioulsy GB agrees that this is the way AVB's mind works, and to be honest I wouldn't be surprised. Also, I dont really give too much of a sh*t about the hammering teams (although once in a while would be nice), if we are regularly beating teams and starting winning silverware I'd be happy.

Finally, and this is something I've not seen from anyone on here (I may have missed it) - Emirates Marketing Project thrashed us 5-0 at home last season, and we still had our best points tally ever.

I am still behind AVB, lets make a judgement in May. I for one would take a couple of Cup wins and fifth / sixth place
 
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