I understand, but i think that can be resolved, turkey has great relations with Kurdish Iraq. The problem Turkey has with the PYD (syrian kurdistan) is its association with the pkk, however if the turkmen groups in iraq and Syria are also given a piece this may apease turkey.... im massively oversimplifying here but these things are possible, unfortunately population exchange is an integral part of this.... i say unfortunately because this in its self can be horrific.
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Paris
- Thread starter monkeybarry
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I understand, but i think that can be resolved, turkey has great relations with Kurdish Iraq. The problem Turkey has with the PYD (syrian kurdistan) is its association with the pkk, however if the turkmen groups in iraq and Syria are also given a piece this may apease turkey.... im massively oversimplifying here but these things are possible, unfortunately population exchange is an integral part of this.... i say unfortunately because this in its self can be horrific.
glorygloryeze
Ian Walker
Truly shocking events
People going about their business and ending up as sitting ducks in acts of war is heartbreaking and as i say shocking. I do wonder of, as @elltrev comments a few pages back, that we are beginning to see the end of the security and related prosperity that we seem to have (mostly) enjoyed since world war 2 in countries like the UK. I wouldn't be surprised if looking back the kind of cycles of violence that could be upon us would more likely be the norm, but just with different 'sides' fighting.
People going about their business and ending up as sitting ducks in acts of war is heartbreaking and as i say shocking. I do wonder of, as @elltrev comments a few pages back, that we are beginning to see the end of the security and related prosperity that we seem to have (mostly) enjoyed since world war 2 in countries like the UK. I wouldn't be surprised if looking back the kind of cycles of violence that could be upon us would more likely be the norm, but just with different 'sides' fighting.
glorygloryeze
Ian Walker
I have to also ask:
What's the reason that this incident is leading to us in the UK and other countries adopting black armbands, minutes silence, French flags at half-mast, adopting slogans showing our solidarity etc, yet barely a day before (for example) in Beirut, Lebanon ISIS/ISIL killed 43 people and injured 239 in a couple of suicide bombings but no similar reaction from the media or general population showing solidarity or even "we stand here together with you as you fight extremism/terrorism"?
Also, i don't believe when similar events have happened recently in Turkey or Kenya that these things were done either.....why?
What's the reason that this incident is leading to us in the UK and other countries adopting black armbands, minutes silence, French flags at half-mast, adopting slogans showing our solidarity etc, yet barely a day before (for example) in Beirut, Lebanon ISIS/ISIL killed 43 people and injured 239 in a couple of suicide bombings but no similar reaction from the media or general population showing solidarity or even "we stand here together with you as you fight extremism/terrorism"?
Also, i don't believe when similar events have happened recently in Turkey or Kenya that these things were done either.....why?
Nnn
I dont agree with it, but france is closer to home i guess. Part of the West
I dont agree with it, but france is closer to home i guess. Part of the West
glorygloryeze
Ian Walker
Baleforce
Martin Peters
because this happened 200 miles away to a western
ally
i don't know why, but that probably feels more real to many
personally, I have family in France, a couple of them in Paris, I must admit I took more notice than I did of the latest US school shooting story
Baleforce
Martin Peters
not really, it's human nature, ultimately we are quite selfish, the closer the threat is to us or those we care about, the more we care, it's in our instinct to protect our bloodlines
glorygloryeze
Ian Walker
Well then people should look a bit deeper or think before spouting the usual "why can't the moderate Muslims do more to control the fanatical Muslims?"
thfcsteff
Terry Dyson
I agree with this, and don't wish to get this thread weighted down in history, but it is very very important to remember that Hussein was backed by the US in the 70s over Iran (who had been 'taken' in the '50s via regime change) and as such, our consistent meddling in the region has helped create the conditions that, etc, etc, you know where I'm going with this...it's horrible.
thfcsteff
Terry Dyson
It is such a tough subject. I understand the 'why should we, we are not guilty of anything' line, but the problem is, this is all a direct attack as much on muslims as anyone else. These extremist bastards are piggy-backing off the faith of millions and millions. I believe it is an important fight to win, but the tricky situations come when moderate muslims see themselves ignorantly cast as 'terrorists' by swathes of idiots everywhere. THAT is divide and conquer at work, and that is the enemy which is helping ISIS spread like wildfire...
glorygloryeze
Ian Walker
I agree. Moderate Muslims are suffering the MOST; if in general there actually WAS solidarity being shown with them, ISIS and its ideology could be broken up and marginalized much more easily.
The fact that there isn't (due to The fact what's happening is just an extension of the age old Crusades) means it will always be harder, and makes calls for "moderate Muslims to do more to stop ISIS" both unrealistic and - probably - insulting.
glorygloryeze
Ian Walker
Indeed. Its amazing how short some people's memory seem to be (or people willfully don't recall as it would 'spoil the narrative'); Saddam, pre-1990: "The Good Guy", from 1990: "Horrid Dictator".
Qaddafi was a 'model' for Tony Blair at one point too; lol remember that?!!
And we see the same circles turning with support for the Saudi family, the Yemeni govt, Modi (who ousted an ELECTED govt in Egypt) was invited over for dinner!!
We could play bingo and work out a timeline for when these guys 'suddenly' become the media new "biggest threats to the Middle East" or "the world's axis of evil"!
It would be hilarious if it wasn't so depressing
Mr_B
Niko Kranjcar
a few points
one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the total lack of response from the french "intelligent agencies" if there are any, to have people strolling in central paris with bags of weapons is not something you would see in any UK or US city.
Nothing in humanity has killed as many people as religion going back to the crusades.
The West may resemble Israel in a few years, constantly in a heightened state of alert, always in danger of the next attack, this potentially could be more wide reaching than 9/11 if you consider the number of co-ordinated attacks that took place.
Its scary to consider a new world order where fear plays a significant part of govt. policy but thats where we're heading
one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the total lack of response from the french "intelligent agencies" if there are any, to have people strolling in central paris with bags of weapons is not something you would see in any UK or US city.
Nothing in humanity has killed as many people as religion going back to the crusades.
The West may resemble Israel in a few years, constantly in a heightened state of alert, always in danger of the next attack, this potentially could be more wide reaching than 9/11 if you consider the number of co-ordinated attacks that took place.
Its scary to consider a new world order where fear plays a significant part of govt. policy but thats where we're heading
SpurMeUp
Jimmy Cantrell
190 were killed in Madrid bombings in 2004 and 200,000 to 300,000 in Syria over the past few years. Life has different value in different locations.
The horror of what happened yesterday is it could have been you. Plus the random nature of it all. Someone out after work on a Friday stepping into the wrong place. In the closest capital city to ours.
I would second Milo's recommendation of Bitter Lake. It is not gospel (there is never 'one history' one representation), but much of it I think is fair. It is good to see the makers fresh perspective and he narrates his own work. Adam Curtis' other previous documentaries are possibly even better. The more you look at the various conflicts spots around the world - Syria/ Iraq, Afghanistan even Ukraine - there is a pattern of both western and Russian intervention. Of other nations trying to manipulate an outcome to their own ends. But in all cases, the only people who benefit are those supplying the arms.
The horror of what happened yesterday is it could have been you. Plus the random nature of it all. Someone out after work on a Friday stepping into the wrong place. In the closest capital city to ours.
I would second Milo's recommendation of Bitter Lake. It is not gospel (there is never 'one history' one representation), but much of it I think is fair. It is good to see the makers fresh perspective and he narrates his own work. Adam Curtis' other previous documentaries are possibly even better. The more you look at the various conflicts spots around the world - Syria/ Iraq, Afghanistan even Ukraine - there is a pattern of both western and Russian intervention. Of other nations trying to manipulate an outcome to their own ends. But in all cases, the only people who benefit are those supplying the arms.
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glorygloryeze
Ian Walker
monkeybarry
Ian Walker
Except that DOES happen in US cities and one key thing helping the UK is the natural, wet, border we are lucky to have
glorygloryeze
Ian Walker
Were the terrorists in Paris roaming round the streets with their weapons in open view?
Mr_B
Niko Kranjcar
does that matter, in a major european city, this sort of activity should have been curtailed well before the events that did occur, the french don't have the best reputation as being the most resilient, law enforcing nation, this is just a couple of months after the hobo incident, the french authorities need to have a good look at their operational structure