All I can say is your wrong... I read some article a while back that listed all the calls for violence from the bible and the Koran... Guess which was the more violent book? As for dolling of the Koran to the letter, again this is a misconception, it say in the Quran, question everything..even what is written here.
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Paris
- Thread starter Danishfurniturelover
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All I can say is your wrong... I read some article a while back that listed all the calls for violence from the bible and the Koran... Guess which was the more violent book? As for dolling of the Koran to the letter, again this is a misconception, it say in the Quran, question everything..even what is written here.
Do you actually believe that? Because it is a blatant untruth.
If you believe in your statement, you have not learnt about it... At the very least, watch Argo.
I feel you are not ignorant but rather just missing the point or turning a blind eye to the problem. Which is part of the problem generally actually and there IS a problem with Islam and it is growing. There are major atrocities being committed by Muslims in the name of Islam almost every other month that havr been funded by, approved by and even taught by Muslim leaders. Their actions are not those of a majority but of a significant and growing majority. Hundreds of young Muslims are leaving our shores to fight Jihad against our way of life.
My understanding of your general stance is that Islam shouldn't be singled out for criticism as we or other religions are just as bad? Or that there are other atrocities being carried out. Its just not a valid argument I'm afraid.
Its like refusing to criticise Catholicism for the child abuse problems and standing by not doing anything as systematic child abuse was not only perpetrated by Catholic priests but tolerated and even covered up by the church with only standard condemnations of individual cases being trotted out as and when they got exposed. The whole culture and teaching of Catholicism bred the behaviour by encouraging an unhealthy respect or awe of priests in certain communities and by allowing access to children unsupervised and unquestioned and by q refusal to adequately address the issues of sex, sex education and what is right and wrong.
But hey sure, look at Jimmy Saville. He wasn't a priest. Look at the condemnation of individual incidents by the priests. There are plenty of non Catholic paedophiles so the church doesn't have anything to answer for there's nothing they have to do. Lets not do anything and just let it happen.
Ultimately there was a significant minority of Catholic priests that used their religion and religious position as a vehicle to carry out systematic abuse that was tolerated and enabled and even covered up by the wider Catholic community. Right up to the top level.
Right now we have a significant and growing number of Muslims using their religion and actively encouraged by their religion to carry out acts of violence and murder and this behaviour is being tolerated, enabled and even covered up by the wider Muslim community bar the standard condemnations of individual atrocities.
I find the Muslim issue funny as it puts the liberal left in something of a quandary doesn't it? Oh but how can you be a tolerant liberal when you have to choose between tolerance and acceptance and non criticism of a religion that removes women's equality, frowns upon the arts and forbids Muslims from marrying outside the religion?
But no, no, DTA you carry on with your bag over your head or with your head in the sand. I just hope you're arguing that there isn't or hadn't been something for the Catholic church to address over child abuse because it happens elsewhere too. Ridiculous
1. Turkey was well on the way to becoming a modern, secular European nation, it's now lost any hope of joining the EU and I fear for its future. Nothing wrong with a healthy bit of nationalism, religion is a far more dangerous movement. If all Iraqis regarded themselves as first and foremost Iraqi instead Sunni, Shia, Yazidi or Kurd, then they wouldn't spend so much time killing each other.
2. OK, I'm really glad to hear Erdogan is only a Neo-Ottomonist. I.E He's only a colonialist who wants to to invade and enslave neighbouring Christian countries and turn their children into child soldiers, and kill of the rest of the Armenians they haven't massacred yet. Muslims go on a lot about Palestine being stolen, are you going to give Constantinople back to the Greeks any time soon?
3. Really, corruption is on a different level in Indonesia than anywhere in the West.
4. Some Muslim countries have given women the vote, but this is an unislamic thing to do (voting is unislamic) and these can be taken away at any time when the nut jobs come back. You cannot change the words of the Quran and, remember it is perfect:
"Your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like".
"If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of GHod], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. GHod is most high and great."
"And let two men from among you bear witness to all such documents [contracts of loans without interest]. But if two men be not available, there should be one man and two women to bear witness so that if one of the women forgets (anything), the other may remind her."
5. Disagree.
6. There is under reporting in the West, but no reporting at all in the Islamic world because, like I said, all it would get the woman is to be raped again by the police and perhaps killed by her family for bringing dishonour to them.
7. Going to war is a very big decision. We are not happy with what the Russians are doing in the Ukraine but it would result in a calamitous loss of life if we went to war over it, so we issue sanctions against them, like we did to Iraq and Syria. Whatever we do, you blame us. We go to war, you blame us, we don't go to war, you blame us. Everything is our fault! It's a circular argument that never ends. You expect us to fix everything that's wrong in the world, and you blame us for everything that's wrong in the world.
8. As above.
9. As before, everything is blamed on the West, the mysterious bogey man *** satan monster that does all the bad and nasty things in the world. Didn't Muslims carve up the world when they were powerful, wasn't the Balklands war the result of the Ottoman's legacy in the region? Why do you keep insisting the West is responsible for everything wrong in the world? It's Muslim paranoia and irrationality.
10. Iran under the Shah was paradise compared to what it became under the Ayatollahs - most women, Zoroastrians, Bahai and plenty of others would say so at least.
11.Yes, they were nut jobs and well done to the young, forward thinking Egyptians who led the demonstrations to get rid of him.
It's not relevant what is written in these books as both were written thousands of years ago in a different society. What matters is CURRENT interpretation and teaching. Current Christan teaching is of brotherly love for all mankind and that the bible cam be disregarded if necessary (eg all main Christian factions accept the major scientific discoveries that disprove the bible). Current Islamic teaching and interpretation of Qur'an is leaning towards the conservative and isolationist interpretations- that is the issue. You're confused I think
You simply miss the point of what I am saying. Without being patronising (I hope) please re-read my posts.
Is there a problem with radical Islam, of course there ****ing is. Absolutely no argument there.
what I hoped to do with the examples i gave... And they were specific and calculated... Is to demonstrate that root cause of radical Islam does not actually stem from the teachings of the Quran itself.
please review and answer my comments on
1. Skye's piccot accrord
2. The creation and funding of the talaban
3. The interference of the west that has led to the current political system in Iran
4. The support of the west against a coup against the democratically elected leaders of Egypt
5. The main breeding ground for terrorists, being Iraq... Post gulf war, Why is that?
6.the support of the west for really ****ed up undemocratic regimes like Suadi
7. The fact that the Quran is not any more inherently 'violent' than the Torah or the bible.
8. The fact that western nations only intervene in Muslim (or other) countries when it suits their financial interests, when it doesn't they are free to do kill as many of their citizen as they want.
9. The Iran Iraq war and western involvement in that (1 million died), and divisions which have increased Sunni Shia tensions and the continuation of that, which leads to the violence of today, and in some ways support of Isis.
10. The fact that western press in the main, follow a discourse that ultimately (no disrespect) leads to view points such as yours, while hiding the facts from the public, or at least glossing over them, that a lot of of the problems are are historically and based on colonialism and colonialism.
People talk from a position of ignorance in the main... Have you heard of the Algerian Genocide? You think that has no bearing on Muslims in France today?
Again ps the the terrorist that killed the cartoonists are C-u-n-t-s
There's no similarity at all. Catholic child abuse has no basis in the religion and they didn't recite biblical verses while they buggered little boys, it was just dirty old men in abusing positions of power to indulge their sick fantasies. The Islamic child abuse scandal - committed by Immans in Madrassas - is still not being fully tackled due to cultural sensitivities. Link
Islamic Extremists do what they do because they believe it is the will of Allah.
glorygloryeze
Ian Walker
Not sure what your question is here, but I need you to know that I am not arguing from a ‘pro-Muslim/anti-Christian’ position (for the record I was brought up as a Catholic), but I am stating the dangers of stirring ‘crusade’ type atmospheres whereby one of the two major global religions is labelled more ‘barbaric’ than the other one when acts of ‘barbarism’ can be found in both; And I again say that both have a history of trying to build worldwide empires and this is continuing imo
Which ‘Muslim’ countries are you referring to that have these courts of law where a woman’s word is worth less than a man’s? Do you mean the dictatorial ones which are propped up and supported by ‘Western’ (or should I say ‘Christian’) superpowers?
Please list these ‘Muslim’ countries if you don’t mind. Btw, if someone reads about a Mormon enclave in the USA or some Romany/Gypsy communities in Europe where something like this may happen shall they use it to shape my view of ‘Christian’ countries? Do you want me to list the anti-abortion brutality that takes place in the USA? Have you heard of the ‘Army of GHod’ in the USA?
I don’t know personally, but I do know of friends from other countries which have sizable Muslim populations who would fear more for their young daughters in a 'Western/Christian' society due to hearing more about rapes in those countries; But again why don’t you name countries on both 'sides'? Would you look at rape/sexual assault stats/reports when you look into that btw? Again, like in the case of my friends it's all about perception (as is a lot of this who thing imv tbh)
Well shall I mention a certain German ‘Christian’ who issued his own form of ‘Fatwah’ against all Jews in Europe…the movement of which still exists in various forms today in ‘Christian’ countries, many of which spring up in the USA and, interestingly, also often in countries which are over 90% ‘White/Christian’.
Shall I talk about the late Rev Ian Paisley in Northen Ireland (a ‘top level Christian leader’) and his extremist views and actions in Northern Ireland, when he was actually involved in setting Christian (and aniti-Catholic) paramilitary groups (would you agree that these can be called ‘Terrorist cells’ btw?). Also, didn’t Anders Breivik identify himself as a “Christian Crusader”?
As I have tried go say repeatedly it is dangerous to label a whole religion as ‘barbaric’ or ‘more barbaric than our less barbaric one’ etc etc.
The real thing that is going on imv is a struggle for global power between the ‘Western/Christian’ bloc (represented by the Neocon groups in USA and their allies in Europe) and the ‘Islamist’ bloc who would like to usurp them (often championed by Russia and China).
As DTA mentions in another post, ask yourself who set-up and propped up many of the ‘Islamic fundamentalist’ regimes that are spoken of and why? Then ask why the contradiction in one year by the UK Prime Minister who wanted to get support for the Syrian rebels and then later now wants to bomb what is effectively the same group (ISIS)?
glorygloryeze
Ian Walker
glorygloryeze
Ian Walker
1. Turkey was well on the way to becoming a modern, secular European nation, it's now lost any hope of joining the EU and I fear for its future. Nothing wrong with a healthy bit of nationalism, religion is a far more dangerous movement. If all Iraqis regarded themselves as first and foremost Iraqi instead Sunni, Shia, Yazidi or Kurd, then they wouldn't spend so much time killing each other.
answer:: you once again display your ignorance on so many levels.... Turkey has trying to get in to Eu for 50 years.... It applied way before Greece for example...and for a long time (thanks to Atatürk) its Democratic system was far 'European and 'Democratic' then many of the now members. When turkey was run by the fiercely secular chp party... France and Germany at the time told them they would never get in to the EU because the EU was... And I quote a "christian club" so wrong on that point eh?
Kurds etc should consider themselves Iraqis? Why because the powers that be t created a country called Iraq.... Your ignorance on the matter betrays you and makes all further arguements suspect, again I advise you to read up on the Skye's picott agreements, otherwise having a debate with you on the matter is futile, like trying to explain to a child a concept that they nothing about and are unwilling to learn about in order to engage on a even somewhat even footing.
2. OK, I'm really glad to hear Erdogan is only a Neo-Ottomonist. I.E He's only a colonialist who wants to to invade and enslave neighbouring Christian countries and turn their children into child soldiers, and kill of the rest of the Armenians they haven't massacred yet. Muslims go on a lot about Palestine being stolen, are you going to give Constantinople back to the Greeks any time soon?
Answer: i have already expressed that i am no fan of Erdogan. But Again you talk about things you know very little about. Neo Ottomanism is not ottomanism, although ottomanism at its time and for the majority of its rule was far more progressive and tolorant than any system of the west (at that time).
Give Istanbul back to the Greeks, yeah sure as soon as America is given back to the native Americans. Australia back to the Aborginies newzealand back to the Maoris, compensation is paid to the descendants of slaves and the riches of colonialism is paid back to all former colonies.... All of which happened after the Turks conqured Istanbul...
3. Really, corruption is on a different level in Indonesia than anywhere in the West.
Answer: Really? You sure? Maybe more overt but not so sure its more corrupt, anyway that has nothing to do with Islam so a fundamentally mute point
4. Some Muslim countries have given women the vote, but this is an unislamic thing to do (voting is unislamic) and these can be taken away at any time when the nut jobs come back. You cannot change the words of the Quran and, remember it is perfect:
"Your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like".
"If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of GHod], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. GHod is most high and great."
"And let two men from among you bear witness to all such documents [contracts of loans without interest]. But if two men be not available, there should be one man and two women to bear witness so that if one of the women forgets (anything), the other may remind her."
Answer: wow you got some nutty quotes from the Quran... Let me know if you want even more nutty quotes from the Bible or any other religious book. Because there are many.... And by quoting these 'quotes' you gloss over the fact that Muslim nations (plural) have had women heads of states , where as America, never has... And muslim women were given the vote in some Muslim countries before many western countries..... But you gloss of over that by quoting what you did..... Boring
5. Disagree.
Yawn
6. There is under reporting in the West, but no reporting at all in the Islamic world because, like I said, all it would get the woman is to be raped again by the police and perhaps killed by her family for bringing dishonour to them.
That's your answer.. I'm regretting even bothering with you.
7. Going to war is a very big decision. We are not happy with what the Russians are doing in the Ukraine but it would result in a calamitous loss of life if we went to war over it, so we issue sanctions against them, like we did to Iraq and Syria. Whatever we do, you blame us. We go to war, you blame us, we don't go to war, you blame us. Everything is our fault! It's a circular argument that never ends. You expect us to fix everything that's wrong in the world, and you blame us for everything that's wrong in the world.
Who is us and you? Im British bruv. But the rest of the post is hilarious... You are comparing Iraq and Russia ... Are you 12?
8. As above.
11?
9. As before, everything is blamed on the West, the mysterious bogey man *** satan monster that does all the bad and nasty things in the world. Didn't Muslims carve up the world when they were powerful, wasn't the Balklands war the result of the Ottoman's legacy in the region? Why do you keep insisting the West is responsible for everything wrong in the world? It's Muslim paranoia and irrationality.
Answer: you seem to misunderstand the facts that I am presenting you with. And as such, you actually feed my argument. Its not about Muslim vs the west... Its about the powerful exerting influence and the reaction to that.
10. Iran under the Shah was paradise compared to what it became under the Ayatollahs - most women, Zoroastrians, Bahai and plenty of others would say so at least.
Answeraradise..... Ok I'm seriously losing interest in debating with you.... Although I would agree that the Zoroastrian s are treated horribly by the present Iranian state (and their religion is probably closer to the ancient religion of Persia)
11.Yes, they were nut jobs and well done to the young, forward thinking Egyptians who led the demonstrations to get rid of him.
Answer: so little understanding. Yet posting things like facts.... Read my previous post on this, as I can't be bothered to repeat what I wrote
Answers above...marked "answer" posting from a mobile
I didn't say they were exactly the same and neither did NWND - he pointed out ways in which the two situations are similar, and it's these specific similarities which i agree with.
Are you being deliberately obtuse?
And are you sure that you have seen the film? because you recollection of the beginning and the rest of the film is wrong.
Trying to slaughter...??? What film were you watching? Or does saying untruths deliberately, benefit a certain narrative that you want proporgate
Baleforce
Ron Henry
I disagree, I think it's the same, they do this and use "Islam" to cover up their sick and violent tendencies