milo
Jack L. Jones
I agree. Harte was slow at his peak and that was a fair while ago. You'd have to be mad to not want to start Lennon up against him.
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- Thread starter GLENROYID
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I agree. Harte was slow at his peak and that was a fair while ago. You'd have to be mad to not want to start Lennon up against him.
thfcsteff
Terry Dyson
Deff agree with Daws, personally would want Parker to play a few practice matches first as this is a big one for us...
thfcsteff
Terry Dyson
Problem with the England set-up is that with Johnson there, Lennon's game gets negated. Johnson hardly ever passes quickly, preferring to 'glory boy' it up the wing and then lay it off, by which time the oppo have people behind the ball and Azza's job gets harder. I think Azza is a very very important player for us who we need to get the most out of...one thing he's added to his game last season is the cut to the back of the box. We crashed a whole bunch of those wide of the goal!
The last couple of games Lennon played for England, he played RB. Johnson was RW for the majority of the match... When defensively organized Lennon was RW, sure... But whenever Johnson went forward, Lennon covered as he does for Spurs players... What he perhaps didn't realize was that Johnson doesn't come back, in virtually all attacking spells, Lennon was behind Johnson.
What sort of crazy logic is this? We went through this before the Euros when 0 goals, 0 assists Downing was chosen to be in the squad as was Walcott... They were joined by Henderson, Kelly and others.... Milner plays virtually every minute for England. It is insanity to assume that England players are the best 11 players in the 11 positions... (Not that England often used a formation with Lennon's typical position in it...)
Highly sought after by other top teams... Ignoring his injury record, which isn't good... Top English teams? Mancini doesn't use wingers... He's never used Wingers with the brief exception of Figo. Silva and Nasri are not Lennon style wingers.
Manchester United - This team does use wingers, they got Valencia to replace Ronaldo...
Chelsea - Last season used Sturridge as a right forward under AVB and used Ramirez as a box to box midfielder on the wing under Di Matteo, didn't use wingers much before that either... Robben was used a long time ago and aside from Malouda, they didn't even have any wingers.... Hazard is in now, but Ramirez must play somewhere so rw is his, although a 4-2-3-1 doesn't really use a winger in the "chalk on the boots" sense...
How many other top teams are there? Chelsea finished 6th last season, but I'll include them in the list to be nice and offer another chance...
At this point, we've got to be next in this list along with Arsenal? So we're a top team....
As for Arsenal, not that we'd actually sell them a player. But fudge me, Gervinho, Walcott and the other wingers they've used in the past few seasons makes you wonder how they haven't had a decent winger in a long time... Although at least they actually spent some money on a player tested at a decent level this time... Podolski isn't a true winger though and though they may have found 1 wide forward that isn't going to get booed by their own fans every match, I'm not exactly scared of their wings... More scared than I would be of just Arshavin/Gervinho/Walcott maybe, but I'm more scared of ham sandwiches than I am of Arshavin/Gervinho/Walcott.... Lennon would walk into this team due to them. The Ox plays on the left, when Wenger decides to play him... He's a far better player, but last season he was left on the bench to make room for Gervinho/Arshavin/Walcott.... RVP's reaction to the Ox being taken off for Arshavin still makes me laugh every time.
Top European clubs: Real Madrid: Callejon and Di Maria are awesome. Barca - Don't buy wingers if they can help it... Bought Sanchez, but he doesn't have the touch that Barca players should have, he fits their system pretty well though... Barca have a ton of wingers that came through their system, why buy Lennon? Besides, they don't want a right midfielder that creates.... They play a 4-3-3 with a false 9, their wingers are wide forwards and are used to exploit the openings the false 9 creates and to make teams defend wide areas... But even then, it's not a fit for Lennon at all.
Bayern Munich, Robben plays on the right for them, he is a huge goal threat and they play with wingers on their wrong sides in a forward 3....
I have no clue how most of the other top european teams play, but how many teams want to pay 15 million or more for a player that just creates and plays right midfield? How many teams even use a right midfield now? People buy goal scoring wide players rather than creative ones now... But the creative ones bought aren't real wingers anyway, Mata, Silva, etc aren't wingers... Besides, there's a world of difference between Silva and Lennon.... It's not just chance creation, Silva does so much more than that.
If you can think of a better right winger for England, by all means name them. If you can think of a better right winger in the PL that's a real winger, by all means name them... (I doubt you can think of many for England, but Valencia is on Lennon's level for right wingers, there must be others too...)
I'm still not happy that someone even mentioned the England team when talking about Lennon, so I'm going to be lazy and show some stats from before the Euros when this came up....
This is a good time to point out that some people are talking about Lennon's poor ball... This is unfair, he's statistically twice as good at crossing than Walcott and had a higher cross completion than Valencia last season....
He got into Opta's team of the season, for what that's worth...
Anyway, here are some pretty pictures:
I want to point out, a bunch of those stats favour people that play more minutes, so just keep that in mind and try to work out each stat per minute rather than just seeing "X scored Y goals" and overlook X played four times as many minutes as someone who scored the same amount of goals... And so on.
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Also, I have no idea how this was let go:
That formation is an abomination. "Sort of creative formation that did wonders for Wigan" is completely inaccurate. AVB should not touch that particular formation with the world's longest stick... That formation is a penis.
Looking at it should feel wrong. On first glance the thing that really sticks out is the penis formation has a good baseline, completele with giant balls. However the space to the edge of the shaft is the issue which makes this formation something to avoid.
As an offensive shape, it is extremely narrow with only 2 reliable options for width, wing backs. The rcb and lcb are not going to be far up the pitch looking for a switched ball. Do not expect Walker (wing back) and Dawson -I'm focused on the formation but the people used in this particular example deserves a paragraph underlining what a disaster this would be- to be both in advanced positions when Bale has the ball near the opposition corner flag. RCB and R Wing Back both forward when the left Wing Back has the ball cannot happen and more than the lcb supporting with Sandro sitting would be extremely risky, you can't leave the CB and DM without any protection at all.
Quickly, Dawson rcb? How far up the pitch are you letting him go? Do you know how slow he is? That is madness. Dawson in that system has to be CB, it's ideal for his defensive style (he is the type of defender Wigan used for CB, the slow organized commander that puts his body on the line) and Gallas lcb is insane too if you want your RCB and LCB to be able to move at all. Do you honestly expect them to be able to offer any kind of support to the wing backs? How quick will they be to get in and out of traditional CB and full back positions?
Vertongen is most suited to LCB in this formation, but he's not exactly quick either... With Kaboul as RCB and Vertongen as LCB you can maybe fit Dawson in the middle, but that's still not ideal. At least both Kaboul and Vertongen have experience playing as a full back, so they wouldn't be completely lost at sea when having to defend in full back areas.
Back to the actual formation... As I've said, offensively, that team would attack by having Walker (taking out one of the league's best crossers last season for Walker) and Bale (played deeper with teams given an easy option for a 2v1 on him) on the flanks and everyone else in the middle of the pitch... I'd expect most teams to counter that when defending by packing the midfield... The rb and rm can 2v1 Bale and the lb can probably deal with Walker on his own, although the LM can be deployed there if really needed, Walker's crossing is not great but it's an option. Alternatively the RM can come in a bit and leaving 1 up top on Sandro with the 3 CBs having nothing to do gives the option of defending the middle of the field with 4 bodies between the Striker on Sandro and the opposition defence, with 2 people taking Bale out of the game. Of course, if Dawson or Gallas are supporting the structure changes a touch... But that means Sandro cannot move up the field at all or he risks a 2v2 if they counter (their second striker or CAM cannot be allowed past him at any time the rCB or LCB goes forward.)
The penis is a very offensive formation... So it shouldn't be a shock when I say the penis being impotent attacking is nothing compared to the defensive problems it will have.
The traditional 4-4-2 vs the penis will work out thus:
3 CBs defending 2 Strikers = good.
2 Wing backs defending 2 wide midfield players and 2 full backs = No, no oh GHod no....
So from the world's narrowest diamond it looks like Dembele and Sigs are going to be helping out vs full backs... Getting pulled into a weird defensive shape is not good for the penis. The tip of the Diamond, in your example Dempsey now must be defending very deep to keep 2v2 with the opposition 2 CMs. Ade is left forward with their 2 CBs. If we do get the ball to counter, we'll be 5-4-1 with Dembele and Sigs as what would be RM and LM and Dempsey would be with 2 CMs, Sandro must sit. Bale and Walker are very quick, but they'd be breaking from wide RB and LB positions, that's a huge headstart for the opposition... If Ade wins the ball in the air after a clearance, his support is a long way and the opposition teams have the right players in position to defend against them breaking cleanly. Thankfully Ade is better than Defoe at making the ball stick and shoving his ass into players around him until he can get the ball to one of our players, but a 5-4-1 is not a good position for people to be in when they want to counter... Especially with the positional rules that'll be in place... Don't get me wrong, even as CB Vertongen would still make his trademark runs forward, but a lot of players that could counter would either be discouraged from going forward (Dawson, Gallas, Sandro and Vertongen as CB) or be in worse positions to go forward than they would in the current system... Walker is probably the only counter attacking threat that doesn't suffer from the formation change (but he has been pushed further forward, he'd not be playing RCB as a RB like Richards would be cut out to play for Emirates Marketing Project/England, he'd be taking Lennon's place in a position deeper than Lennon's normal position.)
The reason I say comparing the penis to Wigan's formation is inaccurate is because, the only things it has in common with Wigan's formation is the Goalkeeper and 3 at the back....
Wigan played a 3-4-3, not only did they have more width in their back 3 than Dawson and Gallas would provide, they had 2 very well suited wing backs including a player that specialized in being a wing back and they had a very dynamic front 3 with a ton of width and 2 wide forwards that would work back defensively...
A Spurs 3-4-3 that could be compared to the Wigan 3-4-3 would be:
GK
Corluka (yes, I know he's gone, but that's a RB that can play CB and is thus ideal for RCB in a back 3), King (yes I know he's gone too), Vertongen (I know he's a CB that plays LB for his country due to his country having 3 insanely good CBs, but he'll do... Spurs don't have a huge amount of LBs that could play CB... Bale has the build but that ship sailed a long time ago and he isn't defensively what this position needs)....
Walker, Sandro, Sigs, BAE
Lennon, Ade, Bale.
That setup with Walker and BAE as full backs and the front 3 in an actual front 3 is damn near the same type of player in every position Wigan had. Defensively, that's how it worked.... Bale would have to actually come back, unlike under Harry... But you have 3 big CBs, 2 of whom are extremely capable as full backs and CBs.
Walker and BAE as wing backs, capable of running their asses off and being capable offensively and defensively. Sandro as the more defensive of the 2 CMs and Sigs being the more offensive one...
Lennon and Bale being capable of tracking all the way back to their own corner flags if needed and being able to put in a good defensive shift... And Ade being capable of being the lone striker when the team is defending.
But let's get back to the penis and its lack of defensive utility. I covered the 4-4-2 and will now cover the 4-3-3.
There are many variations of the 4-3-3 but I'll try to use a generic one...
The penis defends against a 4-3-3 as follows:
3 CBs vs a front 3? Dawson and Gallas vs wingers/wide forwards? Sounds very bad to me... Whether pacey wingers or strikers played wide, this cannot be good... If you look at wide options used in the PL and scan through the types of players that are used in 4-3-3s and 4-2-3-1s, it looks damn ugly. I wouldn't like Dawson tested for pace at the best of times, but against the players full backs have to deal with, it's just suicide.... This is a 3v3 situation anyway and the lack of a spare man is risky... One CB covering one striker with the other CBs playing in full back positions is not good...
The alternative is to play 3 CBs vs 1 Striker and have the wing backs create a back 5... 3 CBs on 1 striker means the other team is going to have an extra man if they leave 2 CBs with Ade.... 4-3-3s usually have a DM, so theirs is going to be around Dempsey... That leaves Dembele, Sigs and Sandro against the 2 most offensive of the midfield 3 and the full backs.. The full backs again, how often that problem is going to come up... So again, Dembele and Sigs must go out to meet them and Dempsey even if you did want him around their DM is now going to be pulled deep to help Sandro against the 2nd CM that'll be free otherwise... You might have wanted Dempsey deep anyway, that would have been an option, but it leaves the opposition DM completely free to pick out passes... A team with a triangle 3 man midfield could have tilted the triangle before, but now they are free to shift a deep playmaker into the deepest of the triangle... Even teams that play 2 CBs now have that option... Players such as Scholes, Arteta, Modric, Alonso, Xavi, Cabaye, Schweinsteiger would all be free to take up the deepest CM position and be free to play whichever passes they wished unless you left Dempsey up with them allowing for 2 CMs vs Sandro (suicide) or pulled Ade back (11 men in your own defensive third)...
That's the middle of the pitch.... The problem remains, you still have Dembele and Sigs defending against full backs. The penis is completely out of shape.
4-2-3-1 doesn't play out much differently than 4-3-3...
You have the same sort of choices and have a clusterfudge of the highest order against the better teams in the division.
If you want a traditional 3 at the back, you want to be playing against 2 strikers. The second best case scenario is to go 3v3 and hope like hell your DM can give your CB some cover while your RCB and LCB handle the other 2 wide players... You definitely don't want to be playing against 1 up top.
If you have a kamikaze 3 at the back and go with something like:
GK
Walker Kaboul BAE
Lennon Hudds Parker Bale
VDV Ade Modric
That's not a traditional back 3. That's a team designed to play how a back 4 would play but with only 1 CB... In that situation, you want to play vs a front 3 or a lone striker and can't play against 2 strikers... But aside from Barca, I haven't seen anyone use a kamikaze back 3 in a long time unless they were chasing games. (In such situations, CBs can be thrown forwards as makeshift strikers and so on, but people do usually drop back.)
There is one last thing I want to add, working on a system takes time... Emirates Marketing Project praticed theirs all through pre-season... Even then there are question marks as to how comfortable many of the players are with it. The unimaginable horrors that would come from switching to the penis without a lot of time and effort working on it just blows the mind. Even if it were not an abomination, it'd still suck to have to change systems yet again but this time to an extreme system many players would not have worked in before.
In closing, don't bring the penis anywhere near my team.
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thfcsteff
Terry Dyson
Brilliant. Will give this a thorough read later on. In short, the observations re: Lennon and Johnson are absolutely bang-on, explaining further what was happening. The core problem is still that Johnson glory boys it up the pitch when a quick release suits everyone. It's one of the reasons that for all the stick he got, Charlie worked really really well with Azza...yes, I like Walker and think he's far better at releasing to Azza than Johnson, but you get my drift...
Gazza Dazzla
Chris Perry
I'd go with the following for this game:
--------------------Lloris
Walker-----Dawson----Verts-------BAE
------------Sandro----Dembele
Lennon-------------------------------Bale
--------------Ade-------Defoe
Get at them, but there's no way this will be played by AVB. One things for sure, we need a positive result before this negativity sets in.
--------------------Lloris
Walker-----Dawson----Verts-------BAE
------------Sandro----Dembele
Lennon-------------------------------Bale
--------------Ade-------Defoe
Get at them, but there's no way this will be played by AVB. One things for sure, we need a positive result before this negativity sets in.
Kingdawson
Banned
Fuego the cb has to be the ball playing centre back imo. He's the one that's instructed to bring the ball from the back line which is why i put Vertonghen there. Anyway it was just a suggestion, and not a serious one at that so didn't warrant an essay for a response.
Pirate55
The Last Man Standing 17/18
Fuego - an interesting analysis. I agree with some of it regarding formations but not all of it by any means. However, for now I will just concentrate on the statistics you quoted.
First off the statistics themselves are highly dubious. They are inconsistent even among themselves (eg in one table Lennon is shown as having played 1581 minutes and in others 1188 ). If the compilers cant even get a verifiable fact correct with undoubted imperical evidence (minutes played is a fact) then their other subjective judgements on what constitutes a "clear cut chance created" must be called into question.
Second, there is no weighting attached to these results. Ball overrun (whatever that may be) is given the same level of importance as goals scored. In pure "total points" terms Lennon (22 points) scores better than Bale (18 points), but I dont think anyone would argue that he is a better player.
Thirdly, as I stated previously, comparing Bale to Lennon- Bale has 15 clear cut chances created and 10 assists. Lennon has apparently 12 clear cut chances and 5 assists. I dont know whether these are seperate or commulative. If commulative, Bale has a total of 25 and Lennon 17. If they are seperate, the only difference would be conversion. So Bales 10 assists resulted in goals and only 5 of Lennons. Given that the strikers are the same (and neither take corners or free kicks), the the only difference is that Bale "misses" more of Lennons potential assists and Lennon "scores" more of Bales clear cut chances created. However, the facts show that Bale scores more than Lennon so how do you explain this anomoly.
Fourth, I think it is generally accepted (although not by you) that Lennon is generally wasteful with his final ball. Joey said that we were influenced by him "screwing up" 3 out of 5 passes when he gets into great positions. Thats 60% failure. I know this is only observational, but I also see him often being very poor with his final ball. If he wastes 60% of his passes when in great positions and still produces 12 clear cut chances, then he should, by extrapolation, produce 20 clear cut chances. While no-one is perfect, I can say that he should be producing a lot more clear cut chances/assists from the positions he gets into.
Fifth, on the same theme, the stats show Lennon has a pass completion of over 81% and the highest ranking (83 minutes) per loss of possession. Unbelieveable - at least at first thought. However, when one thinks about it, most of Lennon's passes are short - sideways or backwards. One of my major gripes with Lennon (who I like as a player but dont think he yet plays to his full potential, especially regarding goalscoring) is that he doesnt take his opponent on nearly enough. Many times he is one on one with a full back - but delays. This delay means that a second covering defender has time to get back and cover and/or Lennon is forced into a safe pass. This lack of immediate directness and failure to use his pace to skin full backs is aggravating to me. Funnily ennough, if you want to rely on the statistics, this bourne out by the statistics in so far as he has very few successful dribbles per game (0.91) and less than Silva, Bale, Valencia, Nani, Ben Arfa, Ox-Chamberlain, Milner.
Sixth, similarly, Lennon doesnt lose possession enough!! He is averages 61 minutes for being disposessed. If he took players on more, then this figure should be higher, but then so too should the amount of clear cut chances/assists he creates. If you dont go for it then we wont create enough - which has been one of the teams failings over the past couple of years.
Seventh, his crossing accuracy is supposed to be 26%. Statistically supposedly, better than Bale, Valencia, Nani, Young, Walcott (twice as good!!), Ben Arfa, Milner, Downing and the Ox. I must be watching different games to the compilers.
Finally, the hard facts of assists and goals.......
Overall, in a final report card. Good potenial, not yet full realised. Could do better. Should be more direct (and make himself more available to be found rather than "mark" a defender when we are in possession). Final ball must be improved. Defensive work- great, but must get in the box more to convert Bale crosses into goals. Inconsistent. At his best, virtually unplayable, but not enough of those games for me. To bring it back to topic, Lennon should roast Ian Harte at Reading. Lets hope he does. At the moment, though 7/10.
First off the statistics themselves are highly dubious. They are inconsistent even among themselves (eg in one table Lennon is shown as having played 1581 minutes and in others 1188 ). If the compilers cant even get a verifiable fact correct with undoubted imperical evidence (minutes played is a fact) then their other subjective judgements on what constitutes a "clear cut chance created" must be called into question.
Second, there is no weighting attached to these results. Ball overrun (whatever that may be) is given the same level of importance as goals scored. In pure "total points" terms Lennon (22 points) scores better than Bale (18 points), but I dont think anyone would argue that he is a better player.
Thirdly, as I stated previously, comparing Bale to Lennon- Bale has 15 clear cut chances created and 10 assists. Lennon has apparently 12 clear cut chances and 5 assists. I dont know whether these are seperate or commulative. If commulative, Bale has a total of 25 and Lennon 17. If they are seperate, the only difference would be conversion. So Bales 10 assists resulted in goals and only 5 of Lennons. Given that the strikers are the same (and neither take corners or free kicks), the the only difference is that Bale "misses" more of Lennons potential assists and Lennon "scores" more of Bales clear cut chances created. However, the facts show that Bale scores more than Lennon so how do you explain this anomoly.
Fourth, I think it is generally accepted (although not by you) that Lennon is generally wasteful with his final ball. Joey said that we were influenced by him "screwing up" 3 out of 5 passes when he gets into great positions. Thats 60% failure. I know this is only observational, but I also see him often being very poor with his final ball. If he wastes 60% of his passes when in great positions and still produces 12 clear cut chances, then he should, by extrapolation, produce 20 clear cut chances. While no-one is perfect, I can say that he should be producing a lot more clear cut chances/assists from the positions he gets into.
Fifth, on the same theme, the stats show Lennon has a pass completion of over 81% and the highest ranking (83 minutes) per loss of possession. Unbelieveable - at least at first thought. However, when one thinks about it, most of Lennon's passes are short - sideways or backwards. One of my major gripes with Lennon (who I like as a player but dont think he yet plays to his full potential, especially regarding goalscoring) is that he doesnt take his opponent on nearly enough. Many times he is one on one with a full back - but delays. This delay means that a second covering defender has time to get back and cover and/or Lennon is forced into a safe pass. This lack of immediate directness and failure to use his pace to skin full backs is aggravating to me. Funnily ennough, if you want to rely on the statistics, this bourne out by the statistics in so far as he has very few successful dribbles per game (0.91) and less than Silva, Bale, Valencia, Nani, Ben Arfa, Ox-Chamberlain, Milner.
Sixth, similarly, Lennon doesnt lose possession enough!! He is averages 61 minutes for being disposessed. If he took players on more, then this figure should be higher, but then so too should the amount of clear cut chances/assists he creates. If you dont go for it then we wont create enough - which has been one of the teams failings over the past couple of years.
Seventh, his crossing accuracy is supposed to be 26%. Statistically supposedly, better than Bale, Valencia, Nani, Young, Walcott (twice as good!!), Ben Arfa, Milner, Downing and the Ox. I must be watching different games to the compilers.
Finally, the hard facts of assists and goals.......
Overall, in a final report card. Good potenial, not yet full realised. Could do better. Should be more direct (and make himself more available to be found rather than "mark" a defender when we are in possession). Final ball must be improved. Defensive work- great, but must get in the box more to convert Bale crosses into goals. Inconsistent. At his best, virtually unplayable, but not enough of those games for me. To bring it back to topic, Lennon should roast Ian Harte at Reading. Lets hope he does. At the moment, though 7/10.
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That's understandable. However the rcb and lcb have to cover more ground than a cb in a back 4 has to and I'd worry when counterattacked with your choice of back three. But ok, no more essays on that, besides I had more of an issue with the formation itself than the people used.
Partly true.
I still think he deserved about 5 of the points they gave him... But with the comment about Lennon not being picked for England, I think the comparison did serve a double purpose. Aside from waving Lennon's stats in the air, it underlined that the people picked for England don't actually compare very well with him. That was me being lazy and tired... The first set with Silva, Mata and other foreign players was from the team of the year selection, which took place before the end of the season. The last couple of comparisons were from an "England team via stats" selection which I think happened after the season ended... Which is why Lennon had a significant number more minutes added but Walcott only got another 200. (He was injured near the end of the season and missed quite a bit of the back end.)
Completely agree that the weighting and scoring system in general is stupid. I would actually encourage people to ignore the scores as much as possible and draw their own conclusions, the stats were the reason I posted them. Perhaps they did 2 goal related things (total goals scored and goals per minute) in an attempt to balance that out? Whatever their reasons were, I would be terrified if people saw their scoring system and just figured they could rely on that to tell which players are better than others... What I hope is that people look at the stats and see the facts based on the player's previous performances. It's handy to compare players without having to eyeball crossing accuracy and things like that... Judging by the amount of "Lennon has a poor final ball" comments that were made, I'm guessing a lot of people wouldn't have been able to eyeball his crossing accuracy being so high.
Slightly confusing wording.
"the the only difference is that Bale "misses" more of Lennons potential assists and Lennon "scores" more of Bales clear cut chances created."
Not quite... If Lennon passes the ball to Ade 2 yards out and he kicks it over, it would be a clear cut chance but no assist... If Bale did the same but Ade scored, it'd be a clear cut chance and an assist. I understand the point that Bale and Lennon play with the same team mates so aside from Lennon being able to pass to Bale and Bale being able to pass to Lennon there is no difference in finishers, but I actually disagree somewhat because Lennon didn't play for a significant part of the season, so VDV, Modric and various others (including Defoe) were tried on the right. That isn't really important though because my answer to three is that there is no anomoly. Sometimes people score clear cut chances, sometimes they don't. If 100 clear cut chances were put in front of Ade, he'd score some and miss some... If Bale and Lennon both supplied Ade with X clear cut chances, he'd score some and miss some... There were several games last season in which we had an insane amount of shots on target, if a few more had gone in due to goalkeeping errors, the assist figures would be changed. Between striker inconsistency (no striker scores every chance) and so on, the clear cut chances created stat is actually a very useful one. (Besides, Ade had about 4 onside goals disallowed for offside, so there are 4 other assists some players should have...)
Also, assists can be incredibly stupid sometimes. Busquets gets an assist for this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7Z7nuxzAjU That's not a clear cut chance, but Messi scored so Busquets gets an assist. Not all assists are from clear cut chances. I'm going to go back to what I said when I posted the stats though, remember the minutes played column, so Lennon has a better assists per minute than Bale (as you say, it's from a lot more clear cut chances created per minute though), I don't really see anything strange, you can also factor in Lennon shoots as almost a last resort, but Bale shoots more than most people do in games. (Last season, he had one of the highest shots per game records.) Without going over every chance created by them both, it's impossible to answer from memory why his chances were not converted at the rate Bale's were.
As you say, I think Lennon is a good crosser (compared to many of the other wingers of today), so I don't go along with the wastefulness... He doesn't lose the ball very often, so I'm not sure if people mean "wasteful he picks the wrong pass" or "wasteful, his crosses never go anywhere near the box"... If we're going by what people say, people say Bale has a habit of crossing the ball too hard (think of the one to Defoe at the Etihad), because that sort of thing seems to happen often. People were arguing about VDV's workrate, despite stats showing he ran more than most during the time he was on, etc... Sometimes people are right, sometimes they're wrong, but people say many things.
Figures taken out of thin air, but what counts as screwing up? Crossing the ball and having a defender head the ball away, crossing the ball and having it go out for a throw in or goal kick?
Assuming you're not talking about decision making and you're actually talking about crossing, at the time of the Opta team of the year Lennon had a 74% failure rate. Bale had a 76% failure rate and so on... Lennon failed at crossing less than most other people.
A clear cut chance can be a pass from penalty spot to the corner of the 6 yard box, it doesn't always have to be a cross. As for your overall point, you're saying that the person who produced the most clear cut chances per minute last season should produce almost double the amount... Well, Ronaldo misses a few chances, he should score almost double the amount of goals... Aside from being spectacularly harsh, I don't see what your expectations are for other players. Adam Johnson, Ashley Young, Milner, Downing, the Ox, etc... Do you watch these players regularly? How do you feel they compare with Lennon when it comes to crossing ability and how many times is their final ball poor? The game is not filled with perfect crossers.
I agree that he doesn't dribble his man anywhere near as often as he used to. He likes to try and play one-twos around them more than to dribble them like he used to. His statistics are way down on that score, Victor Moses used to dribble people more than almost everyone in the league (he was first or second) and had something like an average of 3 successful dribbles per match. As for us, Modric was actually pretty high on our list...
Anyway, I agree with what you say, Lennon plays safer than a bunch of other people. He doesn't shoot like Defoe, doesn't try to dribble like Walker, doesn't try to beat people with trickery like BAE, etc... His passes are generally safe too... It's a shame it's dribbles per match and not per minute (although the Ox's stats would increase by 33%+) but I pretty much agree with this. I have a lot of faith in Lennon being able to beat his man but he doesn't want to seem to risk overunning the ball or losing the ball... As such, he's a safe pair of hands and is very good to have around when we're trying to keep the ball. As far as the sideways and backwards passes go.... Scholes did the most sideways and backwards passes last season, so it's not like sideways and backwards passes makes you a terrible player... We're been over the amount Lennon creates, so it's not as if every pass from him goes backwards.
I see your point, but I wish we had a team of Xavis that could keep the ball all day.
So I'm not going to agree with your choice of words. As for "if you don't go for it, we won't create enough", well, he creates more than most. But I do see your point. I will add that last season he had Harry for a manager... Harry that praised Peanut for not losing the ball and Harry that wanted to pass and probe, etc... Under Jol, Lennon was our strategy, we passed the ball to Lennon and hoped for the best... We barely used our left wing compared to our right. I suspect his playing style was changed by managers, but I have no proof of that, it might be for other reasons. I see no reason at all why a manager would tell Lennon never to take on anyone, but would tell Bale to take on players all the time, so we'll see what happens under AVB. If nothing else, AVB knows how he wants his team to play, so we shouldn't see Lennon play one way and Bale play another.Yes. He completed a higher percentage of crosses than Bale (just)... This shouldn't be a surprise as Bale's crosses tend to get missed by inches quite often. They have about the same accuracy though, 1-2% is not that huge.
Valencia - Yes, although Lennon finished with 25% rather than the 26% he had when the team of the year stats were compiled, that's the same as Valencia... But why the surprise? Valencia was usually aiming for Rooney (short) who was sometimes the lone striker, although he usually had Welbeck or someone alongside him. Valencia scored with a cross in one match. What sort of percentage did you expect Valencia to have?
Nani - Yes. Lower accuracy than Valencia when trying to find the same players... But Nani is often deployed on his weaker side, so that's to be expected.
Young - See Nani.
Walcott - fudge yes. Walcott does ground crosses or his crosses have the accuracy of a blind darts player. It is a shock to me that 13% of Walcott's crosses even get near an Arsenal player... I've watched and counted Walcott's aerial crosses many times and it is very rare that his crosses go anywhere near where he's aiming... So for opposition defenders to not clear more than they do, it's shameful. As I say though, ground crosses count, so that's where the bulk of his accurate passes were played. If you think Walcott's crossing is anywhere near as good as Lennon's, watch an Arsenal game. Hell, watch one anyway, if Walcott is playing, then it'll be good for a laugh.
Ben Arfa - Cisse and Ba are big targets. Ben Arfa didn't play much before Cisse came, so he mostly played in that 4-3-3 Pardew created (seemingly) for him. It's a disappointing cross completion rate, but I don't know the player well enough to explain why that was.
Milner - Well yeah. I know he had Dzeko and Balotelli to aim at sometimes, but for some of the season it was Aguero... I'm really impressed with Silva for being able to have such an amazing completion rate and a tiny player like Aguero to aim for... It's no surprise at all that Milner had a lower crossing accuracy than Lennon... Milner is a player praised for his defensive qualities, so it's not surprising that his crossing isn't as good as more offensively minded players.
Downing - You're surprised Lennon's crossing is better than 0 goals, 0 assists Downing? 0 goals, 0 assists Downing had 0 assists last season, if he were a better crosses, he might have got a few... That said, I do remember Carroll fudging up a couple of his crosses, other than that, aiming for Suarez alone with a cross can't be that easy... But mostly, Downing was awful last season.
The Ox - RVP isn't Drogba... But he had 23% crossing accuracy compared to Walcott's 13%, so it seems about right. No real surprises there. The Ox is right footed and plays on the left too, so that can't help.
All of the above players are more than capable of crossing the ball and it going out for a goal kick/throw in... Valencia, Bale and others are considered "good crossers" and Lennon isn't, but Lennon has a better completion rate... He doesn't beat them all by 10% though, most are very close. Ground crosses count as crosses too, so don't forget Lennon and Bale put in plenty of those last season.
Ok, we'll see. Here's hoping. That said, our team can be dumbasses sometimes... I recall opposition players getting booked and the team not passing to Lennon to take him on when he can't tackle... So I hope the team doesn't just pass to Bale if Lennon is up against Ian Harte. That said, if Reading don't defend deep, I'll be surprised. It's suicidal to give Bale and Lennon space to run into at the best of times.
I would say this is an example of stats not being used at their best. A great crosser of the ball is a guy who can whip in a ball at the right height and speed, in such a way it takes people out of the game. So whilst Lennon might have a high completion rate of balls player from wide areas, it doesn't mean he's a great crosser. What the stat does is alert us to is look more closely at Lennons supply from wide areas. This will tell us and later be confirmed by more detailed stats (ie clear cut chances) that via his style of play he is delivering balls into the box that are creating very good goal scoring opportunities. So basically we can learn from using stats that whilst they don't prove Lennon is a great crosser of the ball, it actually doesn't matter, as by playing to his strengths, he is able to be more effective than the best crossers.
Stewart Downing might whip in some fantastic crosses, but they are always going to be much harder to convert. Lennon dribbles to byline and cuts a ball across the goal, from much closer range. Statistically this will still count as a cross, but it's not an example of great crossing technique. But ultimately who cares as the best crosser in the world is going to struggle to create many really clear scoring chances. The simple reason is that crossing accurately is difficult and scoring from them is equally as hard. Whilst dribbling in and laying off is easier to get accuracy and easier to score from. Hence Lennon creates the most clear cut chances. We are lucky to have a player who can do this as it seems no one else is.
Pirate55
The Last Man Standing 17/18
:ross:
To summarise Fuego:
Less penises (or penii ???) - whether flacid, erect or out of shape.
More balls - to dare is to do
More dribbling - especially by our wonderkid (and underappreciated) super creator Master Lennon.
And even more dribbling - especially by Lennon.
Gazza Dazzla
Chris Perry
I think our inept performances last year while Lennon was out injured speak for themselves on this one (actually pretty much every time he's out injured we don't look the same team). To be honest, if fans can't see what Lennon gives to us now they never will. He's got his faults, he could do better in certain aspects, but then you can level the same at pretty much any player in the world bar Messi and Ronaldo if you focus on them hard enough. Hell even Modric was criticised by some people who didn't understand what role he performed for us.
We've had only 3 games this season and Lennon can consider himself very unlucky not have 3 assists. The chance he set up against Saudi Sportswashing Machine for Bale, who headed against the bar, was a very good goal scoring opportunity. The ball he played that Defoe headed and then scored from provided a clear scoring chance. We did score from it, but Lennon didn't get the assist he should have, as Defoe's original header got saved. Against West Brom he created a clear cut chance for VDV and easily the best opportunity we've had in the last 2 games. People ask "what is a chance created", well look at those 3 examples and tell me Lennon isn't incredibly good at creating very good goal scoring opportunities and is very unlucky not have 3 assists for the season.
markysimmo
Johnny nice-tits
Another lovely slating article by Howard of AVB and Spurs in The Sun again today..
Shame he doesnt even realise what day the game is on, tosspot and one of Harry's old muckers..
Shame he doesnt even realise what day the game is on, tosspot and one of Harry's old muckers..