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***OMT - Tottenham Hotspur v The Garibaldis (will Marinakis eat his own club with a cuppa?), Sat Sept 5th, City Ground, 3pm***

Bishop said:
High kicks make sense, but a diving header? That dangerous to the player going for the flipping header. Man i hate football these days. 🤣
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I think the logic is that the defenders instinct is to pull out of the challenge giving the attacker an unfair advantage, and do you really want to encourage players to be throwing their heads at opposition feet.
 
thfcsteff said:
Nah.
You only mentioned VdV. THAT'S what I was pointing out. There were several breaks, and VdV was the absolute least of them, however that does not fit your (apparent) agenda.
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No, i mentioned Robertson as well as you saw in a later reply. I'm critical over anyone I see doing bs, VDV jumped out to me because I noticed his positional play all the time but it just gets swept under the rug as you've tried to do. You e still not really acknowledged VDV's part, instead you've only spoken about Robertson I get it you rate him highly, but you should also be able to see the faults and it's a consistent fault.

Did he have a bad game today? No not all, I thought he was quite good. He made a number of good interceptions and challenges, but did he also have his usual wandering positional sense yes he did and for that's an issue because while we might get away with it, that's by chance many times or because he does manage to get back and make the challenge, but he shouldn't need to make the last ditch tackle if he just read the game better.
 
glasgowspur said:
I think the logic is that the defenders instinct is to pull out of the challenge giving the attacker an unfair advantage, and do you really want to encourage players to be throwing their heads at opposition feet.
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I'm old school, blood and thunder mixed with flair and panache. 😅

Man I just think sometimes collisions will happen. To this day I'll never accept the Romero Chelsea sending off. fudging madness I say, fooking madness.
 
thfcsteff said:
To my eye...the issue starts when Milenkovic is on the ball. Marmoush and Gallagher are both there. Marmoush should press him. Tonali watches Delap run past him showing for the ball. Why does he not go with Delap (I believe). What is a he guarding there? Gibbs-White? Why hasn't Robertson tucked in, who is HE marking/watching? As for Tonali, he let Delap run and receive that short pass unchallenged (and effectively allowed him to play that short pass to McAtee who plays it past Tonali anyway - he's slow to see that ball).
Of the two CBs, the one I'd criticize there is JPVH who has allowed MGW to remain onside; if he pushes half a yard MGW is offside.

I think RDZ wants us to play higher when possible. What I cannot figure out is why neither Marmoush or Gallagher pressed their initial men, and why Tonali didn't either follow Delap when he showed for that ball from Milenkovic, or then read the ball from McAttee better/not notice MGW running in behind him?

I can see why on first glance it looks like a CB positional error, but a closer inspection (IMO) shows it is a systemic breakdown which for me is an example of a side which has not played much football together and is still finding its rhythm.

FWIW...I'm well up for exchanges of this nature, and discussing/debating points (I learn too). I'm personally not up for repetitive 'he's not a good defender' when it's clear he actually is, plus it's clear it's an opinion you hold which we'll never agree on.
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You misunderstand my view on VDV slightly. I think he's very good in certain circumstances but I don't think he's a well rounded defender as yet. Positionally I think he's poor as you well know, I've seen him getting dribbled past in our box far too easily and he's pretty poor aerially.

That doesn't mean I think he's useless. I critiicsie the positional play because I believe that's relatively easy to fix, he needs to concentrate more, have better awareness of where the opposition attackers are and rely less on his pace because he doesn't always recover those siymtiations.

If he does this it will step his game up a level, so I don't criticise to pull him down. I note the flaws of where he can improve and he needs to in that area because as I said I see it week in and week out with him. It's not a new complaint and I'm not the only one who sees it or has commented in it I'm just the most vocal.
 
Bishop said:
You misunderstand my view on VDV slightly. I think he's very good in certain circumstances but I don't think he's a well rounded defender as yet. Positionally I think he's poor as you well know, I've seen him getting dribbled past in our box far too easily and he's pretty poor aerially.
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He's still relatively young at 25. I'd expect him to be at his peak in two years. I also think it's pretty hard to evaluate him without seeing him play as part of a consistent defence. I saw a lot of Virgil Van Dyke before Liverpool paid the big money, and thought they were mad. Once he was playing in a side with a settled ethos and defence he was able to let his natural abilities shine and LFC could build to his strengths too. VdV has gone from chaos and injuries to one of the worst managers I can remember to RDZ. To your specific points, I cannot say I have noticed him being dribbled past in our box very much at all. Aerially? Yes. His height gives the impression he'd be better in the air than he is, albeit he is not as terrible as some say.


Bishop said:
That doesn't mean I think he's useless. I critiicsie the positional play because I believe that's relatively easy to fix, he needs to concentrate more, have better awareness of where the opposition attackers are and rely less on his pace because he doesn't always recover those siymtiations.
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I think his managers are attracted to that speed personally, and therefore want him to play higher and use his speed as a recovery tool.

Bishop said:
If he does this it will step his game up a level, so I don't criticise to pull him down. I note the flaws of where he can improve and he needs to in that area because as I said I see it week in and week out with him. It's not a new complaint and I'm not the only one who sees it or has commented in it I'm just the most vocal.
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So ask yourself the question. IF you see it week in week out, and IF it is happening in your eyes week in week out, why would he
a) not be 'correcting' it
b) why would the coaches/manager not be 'correcting' it
c) why would he not be dropped?

I think at a certain point you have to consider the fact that (as an elite professional) he is continuously looking to improve and learn, and that his managers/coaches are working on all aspects of his game and physical health as well. Which would suggest that what you see as consistent errors are systemic errors/miscalculations on the team's behalf.

You chose to make no comment on my observations of that specific moment in the game FWIW.
 
Think we are looking more solid, Bentancur and Tonali were good defensively. Like to see Bentancur behind Tonali and Fernandes because Gallagher at 10 is giving very little creativity. Marmoush as a 9 or false 9 isn't working, I hope Solanke can begin being fit enough to start. Savio was a very mixed bag, poor dribbling but some clever passes and play. Enjoyed Kudus's cameo, a fun player to watch.
 
Gazza Dazzla said:
I’d be interested to see him in the 10 role just ahead of Fernandez and Tonali. Though wasn’t it when he was moved there for West Ham that his form started to dip?
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Not sure if it will work. But he looks so much better in tight positions than Tonali and Gallagher. That drop of shoulder and movement so like Dembele.
 
I really just don’t understand the online chat around football nowadays, both from the media and fans online.

There are pictures that clearly show Williams arm is what puts the ball in yesterday, don’t get me wrong he isn’t slapping it into the net, but he more or less leans on the ball with his arms to put it in, it’s gone off his arm before it’s gone in, it’s handball.

Yet the amount of people online, “there’s no clear evidence” “where does it touch his arm?” - literally, in the picture you’re looking at showing the players arm knocking the ball in.

It’s like going outside, looking at a blue sky and arguing it’s yellow, having it pointed out to you that it’s clearly blue and just arguing it’s yellow anyway.

Once they start to accept it clearly hit his hand, they start with “well it should be a penalty because Tonali goes and kicks him in the head” a second thing that just didn’t happen followed by “Tonalis gone in studs up” …Tonali is trying to kick a ball that is not on the floor, this is why you can see his studs, same way as you can see someone’s studs if they’re running in front of you.

It’s just so insane how thick the media and other fans are around our club now, everything must be a pile on Spurs moment even when all of the evidence shows you something was the correct decision.
 
Rafa87 said:
I really just don’t understand the online chat around football nowadays, both from the media and fans online.

There are pictures that clearly show Williams arm is what puts the ball in yesterday, don’t get me wrong he isn’t slapping it into the net, but he more or less leans on the ball with his arms to put it in, it’s gone off his arm before it’s gone in, it’s handball.

Yet the amount of people online, “there’s no clear evidence” “where does it touch his arm?” - literally, in the picture you’re looking at showing the players arm knocking the ball in.

It’s like going outside, looking at a blue sky and arguing it’s yellow, having it pointed out to you that it’s clearly blue and just arguing it’s yellow anyway.

Once they start to accept it clearly hit his hand, they start with “well it should be a penalty because Tonali goes and kicks him in the head” a second thing that just didn’t happen followed by “Tonalis gone in studs up” …Tonali is trying to kick a ball that is not on the floor, this is why you can see his studs, same way as you can see someone’s studs if they’re running in front of you.

It’s just so insane how thick the media and other fans are around our club now, everything must be a pile on Spurs moment even when all of the evidence shows you something was the correct decision.
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Just happy they canx. Cos honestly I thought they would give it, well its us
 
Watched back the highlights and the only real concern was the left hand side

Udogie and Tel were dreadful
Robertson wasn't much better and MM the worst of the bunch

MM obviously gets a pass for a few weeks as he gets up to speed. (Maybe shouldn't use the word speed)
 
Legohamster said:
Watched back the highlights and the only real concern was the left hand side

Udogie and Tel were dreadful
Robertson wasn't much better and MM the worst of the bunch

MM obviously gets a pass for a few weeks as he gets up to speed. (Maybe shouldn't use the word speed)
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I'm a supporter of Tel but I do feel he needs to kick on this season - not writing him off at all as it's not like the team as a whole are firing on all cylinders, but he needs to improve on his last couple of showings. Maybe will be helpful for him once more attackers are properly fit and he is used from the bench, as I don't think he is better than a squad player at this stage.

My hot take is Udogie just isn't that good - injuries aren't an excuse as if you are constantly getting them that's not helpful anyway. We saw a good few months when he first arrived (which happens with plenty of players before tailing off) and nothing really since. I'm far from sold on Robertson, but I would have been happy to cut our losses and sell Udogie back to Italy and have Robertson as the experienced LB with Souza staying here to compete for the spot as he looks capable to me albeit from little cameos.....
 
harr1984 said:
I'm a supporter of Tel but I do feel he needs to kick on this season - not writing him off at all as it's not like the team as a whole are firing on all cylinders, but he needs to improve on his last couple of showings. Maybe will be helpful for him once more attackers are properly fit and he is used from the bench, as I don't think he is better than a squad player at this stage.

My hot take is Udogie just isn't that good - injuries aren't an excuse as if you are constantly getting them that's not helpful anyway. We saw a good few months when he first arrived (which happens with plenty of players before tailing off) and nothing really since. I'm far from sold on Robertson, but I would have been happy to cut our losses and sell Udogie back to Italy and have Robertson as the experienced LB with Souza staying here to compete for the spot as he looks capable to me albeit from little cameos.....
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I was Happy to give Udogie this season and see how we go, mainly because of the injuries we've not really seen what he can do over a long period of time.

However....he's been pretty poor so far, Robertson will end up being the first choice at this rate.

I think Udogie would be on the list of the second set of players at risk of being sold
 
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