OMT: Everton vs Mighty Spurs

[BrainOfLevy]

You are the master of hyperbole and verballing! Who has pointed and laughed at him? I haven't even said he was that bad. I'd give him a 6, but given how long he has been at the club, that doesn't represent an acceptable level of performance. I just call it as I see it. When he starts playing to a higher level, more consistently, I will acknowledge it and be very happy for him.

I don't know who has, literally, pointed and laughed at him because this is an online forum.

I'm bored of it now though. You only have to read the thread to see people going in on a level of detail reserved for no other player to criticise him when this just wasn't the game to do it.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

People said that because it was true! Over time Poch transformed him and now Dembele is one of the squads better players. But at that time...Dembele was poor, very poor. He held onto the ball too long, made predictable plays, slowed down our tempo and ran down blind alleys. Just because he is playing well now does not allow for a re writing of history.

And some people advocate for patience, seeing what a coach who has known to work well with players to genuinely improve aspects of their game can do. Some people also wait to see what a coach who has a notoriously intense and specific fitness regime can do with players once they have had the pre season of it.

And some make their minds up and jump the gun too soon. It's fine. We can all support the club in different ways and I don't think anyone who advocates for patience means they are also advocating for mediocrity...it's just that we our supporters, and it's pretty clear the team functions better when the fans are onside and the atmosphere is better. Confidence is also an actual thing that exists, so it probably helps to foster an environment where that too can flourish.

I will say, in all seriousness, one of the benefits of having a young team that has mostly trained here and works well together is also that we make it easier for fans to get behind the team, because they afford these players more patience and in turn these players probably give us a couple of years extra loyalty than they normally would do because they know the environment is right for them. It's one of the reasons we are able to compete against clubs with more money - we are united and we create an atmosphere where these players can flourish. To a virtuous cycle and we need to see performance for sure, but you can bet when the team gives us a good performance and we start singing about how Poch is magic, they all know they are working under a man that is good for them. Now, given all of this, why on earth is it beneficial to pick apart the performance of a player in minute detail to continue the toxic atmosphere around him? To allow the moaners in the crowd the justification to wail loudly at a misplaced pass because there's a load of other people doing it too? It's absolutely counter productive. Is it because he's 27? Because he cost 30M? Ok fine, we expected more last season for sure. But now he is actually showing improvement, so let's give him the best chance to succeed. Janssen can get all the chances in the world because he runs a lot and the fans won't pick everything apart. They will encourage him. Will him to get better. Why does Sissoko not get the same, considering we as fans and the atmosphere we create, showing a united front behind the team is one of our strategic advantages?

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Sanchez has all the tools now Poch has to show him how to use them properly, covers the ground effortlessly.

Q. Did Gylfi Sigurdsson play on Saturday?

Now now don't upset all the people who wanted to resign him

 

[braineclipse]

STOP IT! JUST STOP IT FFS! Give the guy a break! He played a good game yesterday. Full stop! Just acknowledge it and move on. I'm fudging fed up of you people harassing Sissoko. It's both unfair and unnecessary! So just shut the fudge up now! You don't even have to praise him, just stop the bloody unfair criticism.

I'm sorry about posting my opinion on a controversial topic without checking with you first if I was allowed to. Next time I'll pm you first.

If you want an actual conversation about the content of my post let me know.

 

[braineclipse]

Yourself and Scara are clearly smart guys, but the level you are going to just to frame Sissoko's performance in the negative astounds me. The team being set up to cover for his weakness as if he's a youth team player making his debut. Judging him by the standards of finesse and creativity when that is blatantly not the type of player he has ever been. It's like saying Eriksen didn't do well because he didn't make powerful runs with the ball at pace down the touch line. Of course Eriksen also played well but so did Sissoko. They are different players with doffeeent characteristics.

Can I just say I thought Sanchez wasn't very good yesterday. I know this may be controversial and going against the established groupthink of the fan base but we clearly altered the formation to cover for his weaknesses yesterday. He needs two experienced players alongside him to play well. Some of his touches looked very nervous particularly early on and and he needed to use his pace to cover for his poor positioning on more than one occasion. He has an awkward style with the ball at his feet and I think he has a long way to go to improve.

Oh what's that? It's ok because he's a young debutant? Ahhhhh I see. Apologies for picking holes in his performance unnecessarily and not giving him the room to grow into his role. He deserves our support to give him the best chance to succeed.

Moussa Sissoko on the other hand? Get him out now! He was terrible last year which means he will always be terrible. I don't care if he's improving. It's his fault we spent 30M on him and even though our own squad is littered with players that took more than a year to show their best form, I want him gone. I just don't like him. He doesn't play in the style of my favourite players, and I thought he was bad last year so I don't care if he's improving, he's crap.

This was not me going to some extreme level to frame Sissoko's performance. What I said is quite consistent with what I've said before about game conditions that suit him and the strengths needed from others to make him play well.

I didn't post much pre-Everton, but I did actually think this could be a good game for him. The formation change quite obviously suited him imo, but feel free to disagree.

I think we're seeing a similar pattern to what was seen at Saudi Sportswashing Machine with Sissoko. For me the explanation of game conditions that work well for him and others that don't is the best explanation as far as I've concerned. To me that makes a lot more sense than him just improving.

I'm guessing you and others are seeing an actual improvement and expect him to make more of an impact in other game conditions too? Along with a solid end product?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

This was not me going to some extreme level to frame Sissoko's performance. What I said is quite consistent with what I've said before about game conditions that suit him and the strengths needed from others to make him play well.

I didn't post much pre-Everton, but I did actually think this could be a good game for him. The formation change quite obviously suited him imo, but feel free to disagree.

I think we're seeing a similar pattern to what was seen at Saudi Sportswashing Machine with Sissoko. For me the explanation of game conditions that work well for him and others that don't is the best explanation as far as I've concerned. To me that makes a lot more sense than him just improving.

I'm guessing you and others are seeing an actual improvement and expect him to make more of an impact in other game conditions too? Along with a solid end product?

I expect him to make more of an impact this season and yes, I think there's been actual improvement.

Naturally certain game conditions will suit certain players. I've never said Sissoko was anything more than a 6-7/10 on Saturday and I've acknowledged multiple times he's going to be better starting deeper.

But it's the level some people (not even you) have gone to to belittle one of their own players. If it was to his face, it would be bullying. It isn't, but it isn't really balanced criticism either. As I've said, some players get away with poor performance after poor performance, but if they fit certain criteria, Spurs fans collectively (e.g. On a majority basis) give them an easy ride. Hard running or look pained when you miss a chance? Yep, you'll be fine despite 6 months of no performance. A silky player that hasn't scored or assisted but has done a couple of dribbles here and there and turns and faces forward well enough? Yes, no matter how little an impact he is having, he will get time.

Players that rely on their physicality in an attacking sense? Hard luck. A silky player can draw admirers from a Spurs crowd and get patience because they've shown a classy turn here or there. A Jenas or Sissoko gets no credit for a lung busting run even in a patch of bad form, no excuse made for them that patience is required (collectively, on a majority basis) because they've gone some small good points, because their face just doesn't seem to fit.

Sissoko was signed precisely because he was different to the other players we had. He is going to have his own strengths and his own weaknesses. But after a good game, you still get people tearing down his performance, picking it apart minute by minute and touch by touch, and claiming he is the worst one out there. It cannot be denied that no other player faces a similar negative atmosphere around them, and unfortunately this same attitude appears in the stands so it isn't just an online thing. It doesn't help.

 

[Bullet]

why on earth is it beneficial to pick apart the performance of a player in minute detail to continue the toxic atmosphere around him? To allow the moaners in the crowd the justification to wail loudly at a misplaced pass because there's a load of other people doing it too? It's absolutely counter productive.

I criticised Townsend for having no awareness or vision. He can get his head down and charge and deliver a cross, or he can wildly blaze the ball into row Z, or he can have a good shot from distance. He wasn't good enough for a title winning team, so I criticised him. Ditto other players that weren't good enough for us. Also managers like George Graham. I will always criticise players or managers or systems or situations that aren't good for our progression.

Remember when Poch chose to make Capoue/ Kaboul/ Adebayor and others the captains and key players when he first arrived. He wouldn't play Kane! Game after game. August came and went, September, October, it was ridiculous how he wouldn't pick Kane to start in the league. I criticised him for it and I was right. Insiders claim this was a master stroke of allowing those players to hang themselves, but I doubt it. Kane was tearing it up in the cups/Europe, but couldn't get a start.

Fans are supposed to criticise things that are wrong. Remember when AVB would just stifle a game and knock it side to side? I literally kept falling asleep during games. I would look forward to it all week and then fall asleep.

If something is wrong, it is our duty to call it out. I would boo George Graham to tell the owners that I wasn't happy, the team was playing crap and he HAD to be sacked. Eventually he was. I wasn't booing a player for his effort, I was booing the manager. /rant


Anyway, you yourself said Sissoko is a 6/10 player so I think we all agree he is Everton level, not Spurs level

 

[Lemonade Money]

I criticised Townsend for having no awareness or vision. He can get his head down and charge and deliver a cross, or he can wildly blaze the ball into row Z, or he can have a good shot from distance. He wasn't good enough for a title winning team, so I criticised him. Ditto other players that weren't good enough for us. Also managers like George Graham. I will always criticise players or managers or systems or situations that aren't good for our progression.

Remember when Poch chose to make Capoue/ Kaboul/ Adebayor and others the captains and key players when he first arrived. He wouldn't play Kane! Game after game. August came and went, September, October, it was ridiculous how he wouldn't pick Kane to start in the league. I criticised him for it and I was right. Insiders claim this was a master stroke of allowing those players to hang themselves, but I doubt it. Kane was tearing it up in the cups/Europe, but couldn't get a start.

Fans are supposed to criticise things that are wrong. Remember when AVB would just stifle a game and knock it side to side? I literally kept falling asleep during games. I would look forward to it all week and then fall asleep.

If something is wrong, it is our duty to call it out. I would boo George Graham to tell the owners that I wasn't happy, the team was playing crap and he HAD to be sacked. Eventually he was. I wasn't booing a player for his effort, I was booing the manager. /rant


Anyway, you yourself said Sissoko is a 6/10 player so I think we all agree he is Everton level, not Spurs level

The difference to your examples is the team is playing well and winning.

 

[Bullet]

The difference to your examples is the team is playing well and winning.

Nine of them are, yes. Alli and Sissoko are not.

 

[Rorschach]

Brain fight

 

[scaramanga]

The difference to your examples is the team is playing well and winning.

If we're playing well despite one of our players being a level or two below the rest, should we just ignore it and hope for the best?

 

[Kandi1977]

I'm sorry about posting my opinion on a controversial topic without checking with you first if I was allowed to. Next time I'll pm you first.

If you want an actual conversation about the content of my post let me know.

I'm not having a dig at you @braineclipse , and It wasn't directed specifically at you, but in general to all the negative posts about Sissoko.
I should have pointed that out in my post, and apologise for not doing that.

 

[braineclipse]

I expect him to make more of an impact this season and yes, I think there's been actual improvement.

Naturally certain game conditions will suit certain players. I've never said Sissoko was anything more than a 6-7/10 on Saturday and I've acknowledged multiple times he's going to be better starting deeper.

But it's the level some people (not even you) have gone to to belittle one of their own players. If it was to his face, it would be bullying. It isn't, but it isn't really balanced criticism either. As I've said, some players get away with poor performance after poor performance, but if they fit certain criteria, Spurs fans collectively (e.g. On a majority basis) give them an easy ride. Hard running or look pained when you miss a chance? Yep, you'll be fine despite 6 months of no performance. A silky player that hasn't scored or assisted but has done a couple of dribbles here and there and turns and faces forward well enough? Yes, no matter how little an impact he is having, he will get time.

Players that rely on their physicality in an attacking sense? Hard luck. A silky player can draw admirers from a Spurs crowd and get patience because they've shown a classy turn here or there. A Jenas or Sissoko gets no credit for a lung busting run even in a patch of bad form, no excuse made for them that patience is required (collectively, on a majority basis) because they've gone some small good points, because their face just doesn't seem to fit.

Sissoko was signed precisely because he was different to the other players we had. He is going to have his own strengths and his own weaknesses. But after a good game, you still get people tearing down his performance, picking it apart minute by minute and touch by touch, and claiming he is the worst one out there. It cannot be denied that no other player faces a similar negative atmosphere around them, and unfortunately this same attitude appears in the stands so it isn't just an online thing. It doesn't help.

Would you rather those of us that disagree with you on Sissoko just posted our opinions without giving any reason for them? I think that would be annoying to some as well. For me it's kind of an obvious thing to give a reason for my opinion on here, particularly if it's on controversial topic. If we're talking about the performance in one game I'm not sure how to do that other than going into details on the involvements of that player in that game.

Jenas wasn't really primarily an attacking player. If Sissoko had the kind of defensive discipline Jenas had I would rate him a bit higher.

I do see people claiming it was a good game from him. I've seen it claimed that he was as good as Davies for example. I disagree. Poor finishing, zero key passes, several unnecessary turnovers, running into offside positions... If this is him having a good day it doesn't at all convince me. I thought he did ok, not a performance I would normally highlight, but given some of the comments on here I chose to voice my disagreement.

He's being judged by a different standard. I don't think many on here would have judged that as a good performance from Eriksen, Alli, Son or Lamela.

 

[alekaras]

If we're playing well despite one of our players being a level or two below the rest, should we just ignore it and hope for the best?

Well, we're always hoping for the best, aren't we, since we're not the ones running the team. You make it sound like not nitpicking on Sissoko by the fans on this forum will have a detrimental effect on our performances. I'll tell you what will have a detrimental effect: fans nitpicking on every player they dislike and creating a bad atmosphere, instead of trying to show support where improvement is evident.

 

[Kandi1977]

Would you rather those of us that disagree with you on Sissoko just posted our opinions without giving any reason for them? I think that would be annoying to some as well. For me it's kind of an obvious thing to give a reason for my opinion on here, particularly if it's on controversial topic. If we're talking about the performance in one game I'm not sure how to do that other than going into details on the involvements of that player in that game.

Jenas wasn't really primarily an attacking player. If Sissoko had the kind of defensive discipline Jenas had I would rate him a bit higher.

I do see people claiming it was a good game from him. I've seen it claimed that he was as good as Davies for example. I disagree. Poor finishing, zero key passes, several unnecessary turnovers, running into offside positions... If this is him having a good day it doesn't at all convince me. I thought he did ok, not a performance I would normally highlight, but given some of the comments on here I chose to voice my disagreement.

He's being judged by a different standard. I don't think many on here would have judged that as a good performance from Eriksen, Alli, Son or Lamela.

All players are judged by different standards!! You don't judge Davies by the same criteria as Eriksen, because they have different roles and skills. Same goes for everyone else.

 

[billyiddo]

All players are judged by different standards!! You don't judge Davies by the same criteria as Eriksen, because they have different roles and skills. Same goes for everyone else.

You can hold players in different roles to the same level of standard though

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Would you rather those of us that disagree with you on Sissoko just posted our opinions without giving any reason for them? I think that would be annoying to some as well. For me it's kind of an obvious thing to give a reason for my opinion on here, particularly if it's on controversial topic. If we're talking about the performance in one game I'm not sure how to do that other than going into details on the involvements of that player in that game.

Jenas wasn't really primarily an attacking player. If Sissoko had the kind of defensive discipline Jenas had I would rate him a bit higher.

I do see people claiming it was a good game from him. I've seen it claimed that he was as good as Davies for example. I disagree. Poor finishing, zero key passes, several unnecessary turnovers, running into offside positions... If this is him having a good day it doesn't at all convince me. I thought he did ok, not a performance I would normally highlight, but given some of the comments on here I chose to voice my disagreement.

He's being judged by a different standard. I don't think many on here would have judged that as a good performance from Eriksen, Alli, Son or Lamela.

I'd honestly just rather than wasn't an obvious negative, quasi bullying element around Sissoko from our fan base. It doesn't help. I'm not saying it's you, and I'm not arguing against valid criticism, or that Sissoko actually played anything more than a 6-7 at the weekend. The problem is he was still spoken of like he played a 3-4. Listen for yourself in the stands or read this thread before myself and others got fed up with it. It doesn't help. And it's not the words or valid criticisms, it's the tone. And it's the level of effort to find flaws in one of our players when he is clearly improving. That's not just holding someone to different standards in a fair enough way, it's just odd and counter productive.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

All players are judged by different standards!! You don't judge Davies by the same criteria as Eriksen, because they have different roles and skills. Same goes for everyone else.

I think Brain is right.

Had any of our midfielders put in that same performance it would have been a bad day at the office.

The fact is Sissoko has been awful to date, and his performance Saturday is being viewed in comparison to that - not his peers.

A 6 or 7/10 performance from Eriksen, Winks, Dier, Wanyama... is going to be way better than what Sissoko did at Everton.

Im delighted he has improved, but lets not get carried away and start dressing it up as something its not. I hope he continues to improve, I hope he proves to be a vital player for us this season, I would be absolutely delighted - but he only makes the bench when people are fit at this time.

 

[braineclipse]

I'd honestly just rather than wasn't an obvious negative, quasi bullying element around Sissoko from our fan base. It doesn't help. I'm not saying it's you, and I'm not arguing against valid criticism, or that Sissoko actually played anything more than a 6-7 at the weekend. The problem is he was still spoken of like he played a 3-4. Listen for yourself in the stands or read this thread before myself and others got fed up with it. It doesn't help. And it's not the words or valid criticisms, it's the tone. And it's the level of effort to find flaws in one of our players when he is clearly improving. That's not just holding someone to different standards in a fair enough way, it's just odd and counter productive.

You say he's clearly improving, I disagree and think he's quite simply doing what he's always been doing. Thriving to some extent in game conditions that suit him, but still failing to deliver in terms of end product.

I see no real reason to think that this alleged improvement is reason to think that he will do well in game conditions he's struggled in before.

You say there are people who speak of him as if he put in a 3-4 performance. I also see those claiming he was as good as Davies (one of our best players, highlighted by Pochettino). I think there's a fairly normal distribution between those two extremes. I don't think he's being unfairly treated compared to how players like Davies, Vertonghen, Trippier, Lamela and others have been treated in the past.

 

[scaramanga]

Well, we're always hoping for the best, aren't we, since we're not the ones running the team. You make it sound like not nitpicking on Sissoko by the fans on this forum will have a detrimental effect on our performances. I'll tell you what will have a detrimental effect: fans nitpicking on every player they dislike and creating a bad atmosphere, instead of trying to show support where improvement is evident.

My criticism isn't of Sissoko - he can't help his inability to control the ball.

The fault is with Levy and Poch for buying/selecting him. That's where my comment about picking a substandard player and hoping for the best lies - we should be doing better than that.