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No case for the defence

Honestly he is not great.

I have mates who are Everton seasons ticket holders who now see it

Your entitled to your opinion but he I've seen enough of him to have a view that for anything more than 6/7 million we would be getting robbed

https://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/threads/james-mccarthy.60038/page-351

Most people on their forum seem to like him, and they do watch him more than we do. Not saying you're wrong, of course, but they seem to disagree with you, is all.
 
This is spot on

http://www.espnfc.com/copa-america-...2501422/copa-america-defending-miguel-delaney

Copa America provides reminders of how defending should be done
by Miguel Delaney

SANTIAGO, Chile -- At one point last season, a South American centre-back was talking to a journalist he was close to about the reasons for the progress he had made in a high-end European league.

"The success I have here is because I can actually defend," the player said. "I can't make a 30-yard pass like the guy I play beside, but I can actually tackle. I can get in their faces."

It is a reality Europe could have to face up to and that this summer's Copa America has only emphasized: many "traditional" defenders now come from South America. While that continent is producing most of the game's best ball-winners, Europe is mostly coaching ballplayers.

You have to consider only the state of the transfer market, as well as the standard of play at Chile 2015. Properly battle-hardened centre-halves like Giorgio Chiellini of Juventus and Italy are now at a premium for the European super clubs, but there is a plethora of such players at the Copa America.

Several examples played in the Group B meeting between Argentina and Uruguay. The former featured Nicolas Otamendi, Ezequiel Garay and Pablo Zabaleta, as well as Javier Mascherano and Lucas Biglia in front. Meanwhile, the latter had perhaps the best centre-half in the world -- Diego Godin -- as well as Jose Gimenez and Arevalo Rios. There was, in short, plenty of aggression.

It is little wonder that the match produced only one goal, or that the winner came from one of the most excellently executed moves of the tournament, with every touch up to and including Sergio Aguero's header from Zabaleta's cross utterly perfect.

Besides that moment, both defences otherwise gave nothing away. The manner in which Garay definitively made sure he got a body part close to any loose ball in the box, or the way Godin threw everything into an aerial challenge, reminded of perhaps the peak defensive performance of the last decade: Fabio Cannavaro in the 2006 World Cup.

Throughout that tournament, the Italian captain radiated the feeling he would just do whatever was required to get any kind of disruptive touch on the ball. The key was that any forward would have as a difficult a job as possible to score. It seemed almost a matter of obsession, his root motivation on the pitch. Very little would be offered up for free.

It is an attitude increasingly absent from the European game. In the Champions League last season, there were 1.7 errors per game leading to a shot or goal, according to WhoScored. During the Copa America group stage, the number was at just 0.94.

The reality was perhaps best displayed in Brazil's 1-0 defeat to Colombia. Manager Dunga's side totally ran out of ideas and resorted to endless crosses, but there never seemed any danger of a Colombian responding with the kind of loose header of which even defenders as accomplished as Raphael Varane and Mats Hummels have been guilty.

Unlike Cannavaro and Otamendi, whose beard adds to his look of intimidation, a greater number of European defenders seem primarily charged with proactive play and bringing the ball out of defence.

Much of this might be the flip side -- and possible consequence -- of Arsene Wenger's suggestion from last season that South America is also the "only continent to develop strikers today".

The Arsenal manager told the Wall Street Journal in September that European coaching's move toward universal technical qualities has meant the loss of more specific positional traits, which are often reliant on hard experience and honing intuitions.

UEFA countries, Wenger argued, are no longer offering "guys who get in the box and will score that 90th-minute diving header, even if it means putting their heads into the post. It doesn't exist anymore."

Wenger elaborated on why that might be the case in a news conference later in the season.

"Maybe in our history -- street football has gone. In street football, when you are a 10-year-old, you play with 15-year-olds so you have to be shrewd, you have to show that you are good. You have to fight to win impossible balls. When it is all a bit more formulated, then it is less about developing your individual skill, your fighting attitude. We have lost that a little bit in football."

The South American strikers Wenger described are what South American defenders first play against, and many of them display same traits, including the Godin-esque "putting their heads into the post", that "shrewdness", that "fighting attitude." It all leads to fewer errors and to a harder time for forwards.

It's difficult not to pin the erosion of defending in Europe on more sanitised and homogenised coaching, and it is a point Gary Neville argued in October.

"With old school coaches, 60-70 per cent of your training ground work would be defensive," Neville wrote. "Where your foot would be, the position of your hips, how often you would have to turn your head to avoid ball-watching.

"I started off with a high defensive base. Players now are starting out with a high technical grounding and learn the defending later. My era of men who retired around 2009-2010 were the last crop of predominantly defensively-trained players. Coaching has shot off in another direction, towards the technical. I've had that confirmed by people at academies. The technical and attacking work is now around 80 per cent with 20 per cent reserved for defensive skills.
 
Thats why we expect full backs to actually play as wing backs and holding midfielders to have the passing range of a quarterback

You could argue that most teams now play a more attacking 4-2-3-1 depending on how they play it in europe
 
Ah diving headers, those were the days.
Three worst ideas in football, coaching badges.
Diving
Poncy video editors with arty highlights overdubbed with macaronic music.
 
Wenger has a point on street football. It is IMHO one of the reasons South America and Africa dominate U-17 soccer. Forget allegations of age-fixing. Countries have long since implemented programs to remove such people. It is pure street-ball. As a kid, I played against people 10 years older. You are forced to learn to play your position well. It was ruthless, a mistake in one match could ruin your next 5 months on the street. However where Africa begins to lose out is development of that talent and a total lack of professional administration except in certain countries mostly southern Africa. By the the u-17 African player hits 20, he is behind his European counterpart due to the amount of development, diet and training.
 
This is spot on

http://www.espnfc.com/copa-america-...2501422/copa-america-defending-miguel-delaney

Copa America provides reminders of how defending should be done
by Miguel Delaney

SANTIAGO, Chile -- At one point last season, a South American centre-back was talking to a journalist he was close to about the reasons for the progress he had made in a high-end European league.

"The success I have here is because I can actually defend," the player said. "I can't make a 30-yard pass like the guy I play beside, but I can actually tackle. I can get in their faces."

It is a reality Europe could have to face up to and that this summer's Copa America has only emphasized: many "traditional" defenders now come from South America. While that continent is producing most of the game's best ball-winners, Europe is mostly coaching ballplayers.

You have to consider only the state of the transfer market, as well as the standard of play at Chile 2015. Properly battle-hardened centre-halves like Giorgio Chiellini of Juventus and Italy are now at a premium for the European super clubs, but there is a plethora of such players at the Copa America.

Several examples played in the Group B meeting between Argentina and Uruguay. The former featured Nicolas Otamendi, Ezequiel Garay and Pablo Zabaleta, as well as Javier Mascherano and Lucas Biglia in front. Meanwhile, the latter had perhaps the best centre-half in the world -- Diego Godin -- as well as Jose Gimenez and Arevalo Rios. There was, in short, plenty of aggression.

It is little wonder that the match produced only one goal, or that the winner came from one of the most excellently executed moves of the tournament, with every touch up to and including Sergio Aguero's header from Zabaleta's cross utterly perfect.

Besides that moment, both defences otherwise gave nothing away. The manner in which Garay definitively made sure he got a body part close to any loose ball in the box, or the way Godin threw everything into an aerial challenge, reminded of perhaps the peak defensive performance of the last decade: Fabio Cannavaro in the 2006 World Cup.

Throughout that tournament, the Italian captain radiated the feeling he would just do whatever was required to get any kind of disruptive touch on the ball. The key was that any forward would have as a difficult a job as possible to score. It seemed almost a matter of obsession, his root motivation on the pitch. Very little would be offered up for free.

It is an attitude increasingly absent from the European game. In the Champions League last season, there were 1.7 errors per game leading to a shot or goal, according to WhoScored. During the Copa America group stage, the number was at just 0.94.

The reality was perhaps best displayed in Brazil's 1-0 defeat to Colombia. Manager Dunga's side totally ran out of ideas and resorted to endless crosses, but there never seemed any danger of a Colombian responding with the kind of loose header of which even defenders as accomplished as Raphael Varane and Mats Hummels have been guilty.

Unlike Cannavaro and Otamendi, whose beard adds to his look of intimidation, a greater number of European defenders seem primarily charged with proactive play and bringing the ball out of defence.

Much of this might be the flip side -- and possible consequence -- of Arsene Wenger's suggestion from last season that South America is also the "only continent to develop strikers today".

The Arsenal manager told the Wall Street Journal in September that European coaching's move toward universal technical qualities has meant the loss of more specific positional traits, which are often reliant on hard experience and honing intuitions.

UEFA countries, Wenger argued, are no longer offering "guys who get in the box and will score that 90th-minute diving header, even if it means putting their heads into the post. It doesn't exist anymore."

Wenger elaborated on why that might be the case in a news conference later in the season.

"Maybe in our history -- street football has gone. In street football, when you are a 10-year-old, you play with 15-year-olds so you have to be shrewd, you have to show that you are good. You have to fight to win impossible balls. When it is all a bit more formulated, then it is less about developing your individual skill, your fighting attitude. We have lost that a little bit in football."

The South American strikers Wenger described are what South American defenders first play against, and many of them display same traits, including the Godin-esque "putting their heads into the post", that "shrewdness", that "fighting attitude." It all leads to fewer errors and to a harder time for forwards.

It's difficult not to pin the erosion of defending in Europe on more sanitised and homogenised coaching, and it is a point Gary Neville argued in October.

"With old school coaches, 60-70 per cent of your training ground work would be defensive," Neville wrote. "Where your foot would be, the position of your hips, how often you would have to turn your head to avoid ball-watching.

"I started off with a high defensive base. Players now are starting out with a high technical grounding and learn the defending later. My era of men who retired around 2009-2010 were the last crop of predominantly defensively-trained players. Coaching has shot off in another direction, towards the technical. I've had that confirmed by people at academies. The technical and attacking work is now around 80 per cent with 20 per cent reserved for defensive skills.

Not sure I agree with all that.

Not that long ago Coates was looking ace in the Copa only to be pretty much a complete flop in the PL.

Plenty of "no nonsense, can't play a 30 yard pass" defenders around. Look no further than Stoke, Pulis or Allardyce and you'll be sure to find them. And someone like Cahill can be taken out of a Bolton side and do really well at Chelsea, if they play to his strengths.

Playing to the strength of central defenders that are better than Hummels and Varane in the air comes at a significant cost though. You must protect them. You must have defensively solid full backs that primarily stay in place, you must have defensive midfielders that are really good. Both of those, and the caution first attitude seen by Urugay, Stoke, Pulis, Allardyce and Mourinho comes at a real cost.

A cost most top teams are not willing to pay.
 
Put them under the slightest bit of pressure and they crumble as usual.

Yet its never their fault. Someone else is always to blame. Tottenham's back four should just rename themselves Liverpool Football Club.

We need to spot buying these Spurslike centre halfs. Its almost of if they first thing we ask the scout is "does he have a few mistakes in him per game?", "yeah but he'll look good trying trickshots out on Spurs TV", "sign him up".

Stoke's players got between Vertonghen and Alderweireld so many times today. Sneaking in goal side of them while they looked static not even getting an arm on them.
 
Put them under the slightest bit of pressure and they crumble as usual.

Yet its never their fault. Someone else is always to blame. Tottenham's back four should just rename themselves Liverpool Football Club.

We need to spot buying these Spurslike centre halfs. Its almost of if they first thing we ask the scout is "does he have a few mistakes in him per game?", "yeah but he'll look good trying trickshots out on Spurs TV", "sign him up".

Stoke's players got between Vertonghen and Alderweireld so many times today. Sneaking in goal side of them while they looked static not even getting an arm on them.

How many times before Mason and Kane came off?
 
How many times before Mason and Kane came off?

They arent gonna fudge up when we in control of the game are they? But we cant control the entire game. We are not Barcelona for a few year ago.
Its like having Carroll and Pritchard as our centre halfs and blaming the rest of the team for allowing the opposition to test them.
Two clean sheets at WHL in 2015 in all competitions! Both those teams are in the Championship.
 
One before and one after iirc

Ah, thanks.

Vertonghen was terrible for the 2nd goal. Can see Diouf, can see the ball but at no point does he get goal side, instead he just carries on jogging as Diouf makes a move right in front of him and glances the ball in.
 
Ah, thanks.

Vertonghen was terrible for the 2nd goal. Can see Diouf, can see the ball but at no point does he get goal side, instead he just carries on jogging as Diouf makes a move right in front of him and glances the ball in.

The whole team dropped their defensive efforts after the pen

Prior to that I thought were pretty good

Dier looked very good in his new role
 
Ah, thanks.

Vertonghen was terrible for the 2nd goal. Can see Diouf, can see the ball but at no point does he get goal side, instead he just carries on jogging as Diouf makes a move right in front of him and glances the ball in.


I was wrong

They were both before
 
There was the header in the first half where the ball ballooned up in the air and Davies was the wrong side of Walters. Personally I thought Lloris should've come out to claim the ball when it was so far up in the air but he held back. The second one saw Vertonghen get caught stuck under the ball and Diouf beating Davies to the ball. I think we will see Rose back for our next game and I'd imagine Trippier getting a shot at RB soon. Maybe Wimmer or Dier will challenge Vertonghen this year for a starting role. Up until the penalty I thought Alderweireld had a decent game.
 
Not sure vertonghen and alderweireld make a good centre back pairing in the PL as neither appear as dominant in the air as Fazio or Dier. My gut instinct says verts should be playing the defensive midfield role and Dier play along side alderweireld. Verts is an exquisite passer and could do well there. Just my opinion.
 
Not sure vertonghen and alderweireld make a good centre back pairing in the PL as neither appear as dominant in the air as Fazio or Dier. My gut instinct says verts should be playing the defensive midfield role and Dier play along side alderweireld. Verts is an exquisite passer and could do well there. Just my opinion.

He did start off as a DM but was moved to CB by MJ.
 
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