Moussa Sissoko

[BrainOfLevy]

If you insist on having one, Wanyama is that player - someone who is significantly better both defensively and on the ball. And I don't rate Wanyama on the ball much at all.

Come oooooon! Seriously? *significantly* better on the ball?

 

[milo]

Come oooooon! Seriously? *significantly* better on the ball?

Wanyama's technique is light years ahead of Sissoko.

 

[Maltese Falcon]

For point 1 to stand you'll have to demonstrate that no managers ever make mistakes. We both know that even the best do.

Point 2 you're nearly there but not quite. There is certainly an argument to be made for the clogging style of football. Allardyce, Pulis, Hughes and to some extent Mourinho have all had their teams working above the sum of their parts that way.

But all the very top teams, the ones with sustained success are ones that control the game, the ones that keep possession, the ones that can break down stubborn teams and the ones that have more skillful players than the opposition. Sissoko doesn't fit that mould.

Scraping the barrel, a bit Scara...

Of course managers make mistakes; but the successful ones recognise them and correct them; that is how they are successful.

To state that an acclaimed coach like Deschamps chooses Sissoko as a regular in his French team - leaving out other midfielders who are better to "keep possession, ...break down stubborn teams and... have more skill than the opposition" - only as a result of gross incompetence (which is what repeated mistake making is defined as) is a level of patronising that is beyond even you....

 

[scaramanga]

Scraping the barrel, a bit Scara...

Of course managers make mistakes; but the successful ones recognise them and correct them; that is how they are successful.

To state that an acclaimed coach like Deschamps chooses Sissoko as a regular in his French team - leaving out other midfielders who are better to "keep possession, ...break down stubborn teams and... have more skill than the opposition" - only as a result of gross incompetence (which is what repeated mistake making is defined as) is a level of patronising that is beyond even you....

I don't hide from patronising people, many deserve for their poor decisions.

Managers have hundreds, if not thousands of decisions to make in their role, Poch gets the vast majority of them right, some he gets wrong. Buying Sissoko was a wrong one, playing him since has partly been down to injuries and partly down to further mistakes.

Somewhere earlier in this thread I listed a load of players who were terrible under Ferguson and the number of time he played them - Poch isn't alone in making this kind of mistake.

I don't know enough about who is on the fringes of the French team to know the reasoning for Sissoko playing, but a mistake clearly isn't beyond reason.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Wanyama's technique is light years ahead of Sissoko.

Uhhhhhh huh.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Uhhhhhh huh.

Sorry, I should respond more maturely...

Regardless of what anyone thinks of Wanyama’s technique or ability on the ball, is he honestly better placed to break down defensive teams, keep possession and whatever else the criteria was above? Wanyama has a decent touch, is comfortable driving forward with the ball to an extent when appropriate, and his long range passing improved significantly over last year under Poch. But if we are reducing this debate down to accentuating Wanyama’s strengths to the the hilt and saying he is ‘light years’ ahead of Sissoko on this regard, as if he’s a conference player, then we really have reached a notable point.

I love Wanyama, I love Dier. But Sissoko is perfectly capable of filling his role his role in the team. He’s doing well. It is not a repeated mistake to continue playing him when he’s doing well. Some people just don’t like his playing style. His strengths are not accentuated in the same way.

 

[milo]

Sorry, I should respond more maturely...

Regardless of what anyone thinks of Wanyama’s technique or ability on the ball, is he honestly better placed to break down defensive teams, keep possession and whatever else the criteria was above? Wanyama has a decent touch, is comfortable driving forward with the ball to an extent when appropriate, and his long range passing improved significantly over last year under Poch. But if we are reducing this debate down to accentuating Wanyama’s strengths to the the hilt and saying he is ‘light years’ ahead of Sissoko on this regard, as if he’s a conference player, then we really have reached a notable point.

I love Wanyama, I love Dier. But Sissoko is perfectly capable of filling his role his role in the team. He’s doing well. It is not a repeated mistake to continue playing him when he’s doing well. Some people just don’t like his playing style. His strengths are not accentuated in the same way.

Wanyama is a lot better placed to do that job than Sissoko. Sissoko's strengths are disrupting play and direct running but both of these come with a big chaos factor. Neither him, his team mates or opponents know what he is going to do. When it works out, it comes off, it is good but too frequently it doesn't. Wanyama is a far more controlled player.

I am not against Sissoko, he is much improved this season and has a place in the squad but he is the worst footballer in the senior squad and a player I think that we should look to cash in on should a suitable offer come in.

 

[milo]

That said, I think Wanyama is the wrong player to be comparing him against. Sissoko has primarily been deployed as a box to box player this season, so we should be comparing him against Dembele and Winks.

 

[scaramanga]

That said, I think Wanyama is the wrong player to be comparing him against. Sissoko has primarily been deployed as a box to box player this season, so we should be comparing him against Dembele and Winks.

We should, but I was trying to be kind to Sissoko. Comparisons to Wanyama are embarrassing enough.

 

[Grays_1890]

I love Wanyama, I love Dier. But Sissoko is perfectly capable of filling his role his role in the team. He’s doing well. It is not a repeated mistake to continue playing him when he’s doing well. Some people just don’t like his playing style. His strengths are not accentuated in the same way.

I think you have to take everyone on their own merit, the whole he ain't as good as him argument is probably the reason alot of teams have failed over the years and players are turfed out too quickly.

Sissoko has strengths and has weaknesses on his own merit but whilst he is a Spurs player I would rather defend him and slate opp players to create a more united spurs than slag our own players. Thats really where I am with it all

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Wanyama is a lot better placed to do that job than Sissoko. Sissoko's strengths are disrupting play and direct running but both of these come with a big chaos factor. Neither him, his team mates or opponents know what he is going to do. When it works out, it comes off, it is good but too frequently it doesn't. Wanyama is a far more controlled player.

I am not against Sissoko, he is much improved this season and has a place in the squad but he is the worst footballer in the senior squad and a player I think that we should look to cash in on should a suitable offer come in.

I know you’re trying to be balanced, but Sissoko pretty much gives it simple every time. The amount of first time passes that he plays to get more talented players on the ball, the job he does for the team, is obvious. This ‘chaos factor’ with not him or his team knowing what comes next, is just extreme.

I don’t really have a dog in this anymore. If people want to argue that both Poch and Deachamps make the repeated, obvious mistake of constantly selecting him even though he has conference level technique, I’m never going to win. I think he was judged even on his technique immediately last season, where he got the ball in advanced positions, had no idea what to do and was expected to fulfill a role he never really had before. He looked nervous, uncoordinated and unbalanced when he first joined. But in the role he has now, his terrible technique isn’t on show enough to be judged. And just like Wanyama is a best in the tackle or Dier can ping a long pass, Sissoko has strengths in terms of running with the ball to drive us up the pitch, and also in his positioning, energy, fitness, team orientation. It’s not the player we bought for 30M, but those strengths probably became apparent having watched him in training for a year. And those strengths are not so easy that anyone could do - you still need a base level of technique, awareness and tactical capability to carry it off. Sissoko has that otherwise he wouldn’t play. If people don’t like it, I can accept that preference.

All I really wanted was for people to stop treating him like a joke. Rating him as a 4/10 when he was fine, or cloaking any praise with ‘even Sissoko played well’. At the start of the season, it did feel like most people were still viewing him through last season’s prism when he was easily on the level of the rest of the team. For the most part, most fans seem to have caught on. That he’s doing alright and filling a role. He’s a Spurs player and we should be happy enough with that. He’s never going to be a legend, he may well get sold as soon as a buyer decides to give us most of our money back, or he may end up doing a job for us for a couple more years. Either way, if he’s treated with the support as equal to the rest of our players - which is what he deserves - and not treated like a joke figure, I’m happy with that.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I think you have to take everyone on their own merit, the whole he ain't as good as him argument is probably the reason alot of teams have failed over the years and players are turfed out too quickly.

Sissoko has strengths and has weaknesses on his own merit but whilst he is a Spurs player I would rather defend him and slate opp players to create a more united spurs than slag our own players. Thats really where I am with it all

Same here. Don’t get why we always seem to need to have one joke figure that the fan base (generally speaking) revels in slating.

 

[milo]

I know you’re trying to be balanced, but Sissoko pretty much gives it simple every time. The amount of first time passes that he plays to get more talented players on the ball, the job he does for the team, is obvious. This ‘chaos factor’ with not him or his team knowing what comes next, is just extreme.

I don’t really have a dog in this anymore. If people want to argue that both Poch and Deachamps make the repeated, obvious mistake of constantly selecting him even though he has conference level technique, I’m never going to win. I think he was judged even on his technique immediately last season, where he got the ball in advanced positions, had no idea what to do and was expected to fulfill a role he never really had before. He looked nervous, uncoordinated and unbalanced when he first joined. But in the role he has now, his terrible technique isn’t on show enough to be judged. And just like Wanyama is a best in the tackle or Dier can ping a long pass, Sissoko has strengths in terms of running with the ball to drive us up the pitch, and also in his positioning, energy, fitness, team orientation. It’s not the player we bought for 30M, but those strengths probably became apparent having watched him in training for a year. And those strengths are not so easy that anyone could do - you still need a base level of technique, awareness and tactical capability to carry it off. Sissoko has that otherwise he wouldn’t play. If people don’t like it, I can accept that preference.

All I really wanted was for people to stop treating him like a joke. Rating him as a 4/10 when he was fine, or cloaking any praise with ‘even Sissoko played well’. At the start of the season, it did feel like most people were still viewing him through last season’s prism when he was easily on the level of the rest of the team. For the most part, most fans seem to have caught on. That he’s doing alright and filling a role. He’s a Spurs player and we should be happy enough with that. He’s never going to be a legend, he may well get sold as soon as a buyer decides to give us most of our money back, or he may end up doing a job for us for a couple more years. Either way, if he’s treated with the support as equal to the rest of our players - which is what he deserves - and not treated like a joke figure, I’m happy with that.

I'm not sure how much of this post is a reply to my post and how much is a general post about criticism of Sissoko.

For my own part, you will find very few posts from me being critical of him. I think that he has been a useful squad player this season and agree (and said in the post you were replying too) that his driving runs forward can be a threat. I think that it is also fair to say that his weakness on the ball is a handicap in a possession team.

I am not trying to be balanced, I am trying to realistically assess the strengths and weaknesses of our players/squad. With everyone fit, I don't see Sissoko featuring. Given his weaknesses as a footballer, I think that he should, and probably is, one of the first players that we would be looking to upgrade in the summer. That's nothing against him though and I hope that he rips up trees every time he plays.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I'm not sure how much of this post is a reply to my post and how much is a general post about criticism of Sissoko.

For my own part, you will find very few posts from me being critical of him. I think that he has been a useful squad player this season and agree (and said in the post you were replying too) that his driving runs forward can be a threat. I think that it is also fair to say that his weakness on the ball is a handicap in a possession team.

I am not trying to be balanced, I am trying to realistically assess the strengths and weaknesses of our players/squad. With everyone fit, I don't see Sissoko featuring. Given his weaknesses as a footballer, I think that he should, and probably is, one of the first players that we would be looking to upgrade in the summer. That's nothing against him though and I hope that he rips up trees every time he plays.

It was more a general point other than my first paragraph. In general, I agree with you. I don’t think he is handicapped by his technique because he gives it simple and quickly and repeatedly gets himself out of tight situations when pressed, and never puts us under pressure or concedes us a chance because of poor with the ball (where as other, more highly regarded players do). And I don’t think the strengths he has in terms of some of his off the ball defensive capability and his tactical awareness, not to mention how much his physicality and fitness will be useful in a Poch side, are anywhere near as talked up as they could be if every single person is being totally fair.

But in general, I agree with you. I just didn’t want him, or any player, treated as a joke figure or unfairly under-rated when he’s doing just fine.

 

[milo]

It was more a general point other than my first paragraph. In general, I agree with you. I don’t think he is handicapped by his technique because he gives it simple and quickly and repeatedly gets himself out of tight situations when pressed, and never puts us under pressure or concedes us a chance because of poor with the ball (where as other, more highly regarded players do). And I don’t think the strengths he has in terms of some of his off the ball defensive capability and his tactical awareness, not to mention how much his physicality and fitness will be useful in a Poch side, are anywhere near as talked up as they could be if every single person is being totally fair.

But in general, I agree with you. I just didn’t want him, or any player, treated as a joke figure or unfairly under-rated when he’s doing just fine.

I don't have a problem with people joking about him. This is meant to be fun. When we were brick, some of the only entertainment on offer was laughing at the ineptitude of some of our players.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I don't have a problem with people joking about him. This is meant to be fun. When we were brick, some of the only entertainment on offer was laughing at the ineptitude of some of our players.

It’s absolutely not fun when sitting in the stands with kids and listening to grown men shout ‘fudging HELL SISSOKO!!!!’ because he’s passed the ball sideways instead of forwards,

And you know what, it’s just not fun to single someone out for constant criticism unjustly compared to others because his face doesn’t fit, particularly when they are doing a decent job, and working hard, and you are supposed to be their supporter. Do you do this in your personal life? It’s sad.

I’ll absolutely take the mick out of people that want to give it to me, or if people have deliberately tried to be annoying or tinkle me off. The way Sissoko was treated until a couple of months ago was at best unhelpful and at worst a weird form of bullying that Spurs fans seem to love to do with players that don’t quite fit the mould. Yes, it’s so much ‘fun’ to constantly moan about one player ahead of all others even when we are winning, playing well, and that player is working hard. Bloody hell.

It’s fun to sing something ridiculous like ‘I love Eric Dier’. To allow a negative attitude and atmosphere to build up around one specific player is just going to hinder their confidence and slow their time period to settling in. If you believe that a positive atmosphere from fans at games can help the team, then it absolutely cannot be helpful at all to foster a negative attitude around one player beyond all others, particularly when their confidence was clearly hit at the time just after they joined.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

It’s like West Ham fans going on about the ‘West Ham way’. Fan bases do have their particular hang ups and hive minds that tend to form around particular things. GREAT banter though, this Sissoko stuff.

 

[milo]

It’s absolutely not fun when sitting in the stands with kids and listening to grown men shout ‘fudging HELL SISSOKO!!!!’ because he’s passed the ball sideways instead of forwards,

And you know what, it’s just not fun to single someone out for constant criticism unjustly compared to others because his face doesn’t fit, particularly when they are doing a decent job, and working hard, and you are supposed to be their supporter. Do you do this in your personal life? It’s sad.

I’ll absolutely take the mick out of people that want to give it to me, or if people have deliberately tried to be annoying or tinkle me off. The way Sissoko was treated until a couple of months ago was at best unhelpful and at worst a weird form of bullying that Spurs fans seem to love to do with players that don’t quite fit the mould. Yes, it’s so much ‘fun’ to constantly moan about one player ahead of all others even when we are winning, playing well, and that player is working hard. Bloody hell.

It’s fun to sing something ridiculous like ‘I love Eric Dier’. To allow a negative attitude and atmosphere to build up around one specific player is just going to hinder their confidence and slow their time period to settling in. If you believe that a positive atmosphere from fans at games can help the team, then it absolutely cannot be helpful at all to foster a negative attitude around one player beyond all others, particularly when their confidence was clearly hit at the time just after they joined.

I was talking about taking the tinkle on here. I think that is fine and to be encouraged. I don't agree with abusing players in the stadium but the conversation hasn't been about that.

Any fair assessment of his first season at the club has to be that it was a disaster. He has improved significantly this season and has put in some good performances but he does have his limitations and doesn't feel a great fit for a team playing possession football.

Realistically, with everyone fit, he is fifth choice in central midfield and fifth choice for one of the places behind Kane. I am happy with him as a squad player and will always support him when he is in the team but longer term would prefer a player who is more comfortable on the ball.

 

[Grays_1890]

I don't have a problem with people joking about him. This is meant to be fun. When we were brick, some of the only entertainment on offer was laughing at the ineptitude of some of our players.

I found when we were brick there was less of this and more togetherness. We made cult heroes of Freund and Berti etc

 

[milo]

I found when we were brick there was less of this and more togetherness. We made cult heroes of Freund and Berti etc

Yeah, I agree that there was a bit more celebrating the brickness of some players with good humour. There were others who we were pretty remorseless towards. I much prefer the former.

I guess that the stakes are a bit higher now and the brick players stand out a bit more. I hope that it is not that we are getting as complacent and entitled as the other bigger clubs.