Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[Raziel]

We are much better run than them and most other clubs in the league.

But let's not go into hyperbole here. Man Utd missed out on the CL last season on gd. They are 3 and 7 points off 4th and 2nd, with a game in hand. I wouldn't want to make any predictions for the league yet. They are rightly favourites for the EL.

And his point was the difference in expectations and that they are continuing to win trophies despite one of their worst runs in a looong time.

Just like Bayern or Barcelona or Juventus, they have too much money and prestige to fall away. Its a matter of when, not if. We just need to carry on doing what we're doing however.

Hahaha, no offense mate, if you spent almost 80M on fudging Martial, 100M on Pogba, 37M on Mata, 30M+ each on Herrera & Shaw and fudge knows what on wages for Rooney, Zlatan and Jose, your expectations better be different ... and it wouldn't be winning a couple of domestic cups.

United's mistake is thinking their return is inevitable, here is the problem, they can't consistently outspent City & Chelsea (and Chelsea has the draw of London), they have to compete with them plus PSG, Barca, Real, German clubs, etc. for the true top level players (and there is not enough of those players), the side is massively unbalanced, Zlatan is likely to be a one season and gone. No question they could get it right, but look at Pool, it's been almost 8 years of trying to re-establish themselves as a CL team (and it was a lot easier to do that 5 years ago than now). Additionally, the x factor is they have lost their air of dominance, when clubs expect to win/lose it has a mental and real effect on outcome, nobody goes to United anymore in fear.

Back to us, we constantly have to punch above our weight, we aren't in the same category, it will be a tough long run, hope we have the patience to stay the course.

 

[Robspur12]

Oh I agree 100%. I want this team to win a trophy. I was talking to a Man Utd fan a few days ago and he pointed out (in a non ding dongish way) that this team, in perhaps their worst run as a club for what? a couple of decades, that they have won more trophies in the past 12 months than we have in the past 12 years.

Fatbloke has mentioned that swashbuckling Saudi Sportswashing Machine team. Or even the Leeds team. Or on a higher level, Bayer Leverkusen in 2001. From treble to nothing in a few weeks.

I don't want us to look back and see that. We may kick on from this and stay a force in the league or become even better in the league (which is what I think and hope will happen). Or this may be the best that this team achieves, we'll end up having to sell the top players, Poch leaves and we are laden with humungous debt from the stadium. Who knows?

Either way, I want this team to win a trophy. They will want to win a trophy. We need to make it happen.

So what? An FA Cup and League cup is a pretty poor return for a club which has spent astronomical amounts of money over the last 2 years. Tell me outside the top 6 how many clubs win trophies? It is an unfair benchmark to put on Poch imo. I am not sure what your timescale is.

Last season the commentators said, rightly, that Leicester were underdogs. So were we and we still are. Look at the Premier League Table we are above Man Utd, City, Pool and Arsenal all of whom comfortably out spend us. An incredible achievement if we can maintain it given that we did it last season too.

Leicester were a miracle - but look where they are now, Wigan, miraculously won the FA Cup in 2013 look where they are now. Portsmouth won the FA Cup in 2008 look where they now. Birmingham city won the league cup in 2011 where are they now? Those are the only sides out of the recognized top clubs , other than us, who have won trophies since 2008 and it's been at a huge cost to them.

It is pathetic but it shows how hard it is to win trophies. and the pressure that Poch is under not just to deliver trophies but to maintain consistency. Bear in mind he could be the first manager outside the top 6 clubs to qualify for the Champions League in successive seasons.

The FA cup still has 4 big clubs in it with a good chance of 3 making the semis. It will be an incredible achievement to win it. I am not expecting it Tbh. But such is the level of expectation that Poch has created I can imagine the criticism he and the team will be given if we don't.

 

[Robspur12]

Should have included Swansea City winning league cup in above list. They sacked their cup winning manager the following season.

 

[Jurgen the German]

i cant really say about Chelsea because i don't watch their games outside of the odd highlight here and there which doesn't give enough of a reflection of the games to know how clinical they are - do you watch their games each week? because if you don't im not sure you can say so either. (that's not a dig btw just don't think a comparison can be made unless someone has seen enough of both teams to compare)

Leicester is a funny one - there's a stat called expected goals which weighs chances created v quality of chance and gives you an indicator of how many goals you 'should' be scoring - Leicester (and West Ham) FAR exceeded what is was expected of them last season in terms of chances scored, it was a bit of a freak season in regards to clinicality and this season they have had to come to terms with that being a one off, which in a way kind of backs up BoL unlucky argument - the season we were better than everyone else a team came from nowhere and had a freak season scoring every chance they had to deny us the title and now they have slipped back to obscurity - it's like the planets aligned to stop us from winning the league

Obviously I don't watch Chelsea as much as I watch Spurs but they've never been a side that creates chance afer chance, and just as I type this they score with pretty much their first chance of the game against West Ham.

We could have easily scored 10 against WBA, 6 or 7 yesterday etc. I can't think of any other side that squanders as many chances as us.

I agree with Hootnow, we can't put the fact that Leicester won it last year and Chelsea are running away with it this year down to luck and no European games. I'd like to think we would benefit from not having any European games but I'm not sure it would be enough to give us another 10-15 points. As Hootnow pointed out, we haven't even hit the 80 point barrier and ended up more than 10 points behind Leicester.

EDIT: and we weren't better than everyone else, we finished 3rd not 2nd.

 

[Jurgen the German]

We dominated them and never seriously looked like losing the game despite their 2 goals. Everton are top 7 side who were unbeaten in 9 games. I actually expected us to draw. As it was the win was pretty comfortable.

We have hammered sides at the Lane and beaten both City and Chelsea without conceding. How you can see yesterday's result in a negative light is extraordinary.

Now if you want to make your case about us falling short citing our away form especially at the top 6 then I believe that is valid.

It's not a negative, we're a young side but we're a work in progress. Our away form is a big area that needs improving but our clinicality as Billyiddo puts it is also an area IMO that we need to improve upon.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Hi, new on this site, and couldn't help myself from posting on this subject. I am going to be very honest and say that unlike some people I don't think Poch is the GHod some others do. I believe he is a reasonable manager with a very good team. Tactically he makes to many howlers, the players are not continually motivated, and he has made some dreadful signings. That said, I appreciate he is still learning, and is likely to get better, but I for one am not convinced as yet

Dunno if you're being serious or not, but if you are, I sort of agree with you - I don't think Poch is a GHod either. But I think he's definitely earned my trust. Poch wasn't even my first choice originally - two and a half years ago, my preference was for a manager who had a history of winning trophies and being successful, and I spent that summer arguing for the merits of Benitez and similar managers over someone relatively unproven and untested like Mauricio Pochettino.

But, when he was the man we eventually ended up choosing, I felt like he needed the sort of unified backing we never really gave AVB. So I started this thread, as a way to reconcile myself to his appointment and indicate our willingness as a fanbase to give him time and patience.

Today, two and a half years on from my first post on this thread, I think I can say that he's definitely vindicated the hope and trust that came with his appointment. He has flaws, yes. He's stumbled at times, yes. But he has done things I wouldn't have believed possible when he took over our fractious, self-questioning club in that summer of 2014.

So for me, he's earned my trust. And I am most definitely convinced. (Also, welcome to the forum, if you're serious about sticking around. )

 

[billyiddo]

Obviously I don't watch Chelsea as much as I watch Spurs but they've never been a side that creates chance afer chance, and just as I type this they score with pretty much their first chance of the game against West Ham.

We could have easily scored 10 against WBA, 6 or 7 yesterday etc. I can't think of any other side that squanders as many chances as us.

I agree with Hootnow, we can't put the fact that Leicester won it last year and Chelsea are running away with it this year down to luck and no European games. I'd like to think we would benefit from not having any European games but I'm not sure it would be enough to give us another 10-15 points. As Hootnow pointed out, we haven't even hit the 80 point barrier and ended up more than 10 points behind Leicester.

EDIT: and we weren't better than everyone else, we finished 3rd not 2nd.

we finished 3rd once the title was no longer on offer - had it gone down to the last couple of games we'd have finished 2nd, no question.

it's not luck that Leicester won it or Chelsea look like winning it, it's unlucky for us that we have come up against sides which have a serious advantage in having no European football - there's a small but important difference between the two.

the reason you can't think of another side which squanders as many chances as us is because you watch us more than the other teams and our positives/negatives get amplified - same as the way every set of fans think the ref is against them or that they are brick at corners/free kicks

 

[Robspur12]

Hi, new on this site, and couldn't help myself from posting on this subject. I am going to be very honest and say that unlike some people I don't think Poch is the GHod some others do. I believe he is a reasonable manager with a very good team. Tactically he makes to many howlers, the players are not continually motivated, and he has made some dreadful signings. That said, I appreciate he is still learning, and is likely to get better, but I for one am not convinced as yet

Poch is far more than simply a "reasonable" manager. The very good team you talk about was built by him. Blending youth players with limited premier league experience and under performing older players while also stripping out players who didn't suit his system.

He has shown at his previous clubs his talent is to take players and improve them through a combination of fitness work and tactical coaching. He has continued that work at Spurs.

As for his record of signings we focus on the bad ones whilst forgetting he also signed Alderweireld, Alli, Wanyama, Dier and Son. His back up signings of Vorm, Davies and Trippier have been pretty good but just not of the standard of their corresponding first choice players. I have not given up yet on either Sissoko or Janssen. In the end though it will always involve a degree of risk buying players that are not ready made superstars like Utd, City, Chelsea and to a certain extent Arsenal.

What is impressive is Poch's decisiveness when it comes to deciding which players to keep and which to get rid of. We don't have older journeymen clogging up the wage bill and the players he keeps tend to maximise their asset value under him. Think how much the likes of Kane, Alli and Alderweireld are worth.

We have lost three games in the PL this season, all away from home. This season continues and improves the consistency of last season while dealing at various times with the loss of Kane, Alderweireld, Dembele Vertonghen, Rose, Alli and Lamela. What he needs to improve is his back up squad and get used to rotating his players for midweek European games. In that respect he is still learning.

I am struggling to think of anyone who could have done a better job than Poch with a £1 million net spend or thereabouts, when his rivals are spending in 3 figure millions. Look at Klopp this season, look at Mourinho and Van Gaal last season. You can always point to mistakes in individual games but I believe Poch is an excellent manager doing a fantastic job.

 

[Raziel]

Was in midst of long pitch, but @Robspur12 said it close enough.

Another comparison I would make is where is the list of "next messiahs" that we were evaluating when replacing AVB ... LVG, Rodgers, Martinez, FDB

Where are they now, and what have they achieved compared to Poch?

 

[Jurgen the German]

we finished 3rd once the title was no longer on offer - had it gone down to the last couple of games we'd have finished 2nd, no question.

it's not luck that Leicester won it or Chelsea look like winning it, it's unlucky for us that we have come up against sides which have a serious advantage in having no European football - there's a small but important difference between the two.

the reason you can't think of another side which squanders as many chances as us is because you watch us more than the other teams and our positives/negatives get amplified - same as the way every set of fans think the ref is against them or that they are brick at corners/free kicks

Only if the team chasing us for 2nd wasn't Arsenal.

On the flipside, you could say we were lucky that all of the top teams bar Arsenal had woeful seasons with the only obstacle in our way being a team that narrowly avoided relegation the previous campaign but we couldn't take advantage.

 

[billyiddo]

Only if the team chasing us for 2nd wasn't Arsenal.

On the flipside, you could say we were lucky that all of the top teams bar Arsenal had woeful seasons with the only obstacle in our way being a team that narrowly avoided relegation the previous campaign but we couldn't take advantage.

what makes it that the other teams were having woeful seasons rather than Leicester Arsenal and ourselves just out performing them?

 

[Jurgen the German]

what makes it that the other teams were having woeful seasons rather than Leicester Arsenal and ourselves just out performing them?

Chelsea finished 9th. Liverpool finished 8th. Emirates Marketing Project got their lowest points total for about 5 years.

 

[billyiddo]

Chelsea finished 9th. Liverpool finished 8th. Emirates Marketing Project got their lowest points total for about 5 years.

so points totals mean something to you now do they?

fair point regarding Liverpool and Chelsea, however both have finished 8th and 6th (iirc) in the not too distant past and so are prone to the odd dodgy season as they rotate their managers

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Chelsea finished 9th. Liverpool finished 8th. Emirates Marketing Project got their lowest points total for about 5 years.

Yep so Chelsea spent £120m this summer to get better

Liverpool spent a fortune this summer too but they had the trade off of selling benteke at a loss

City got their lowest points but still finished top 4 in what is recognised as the hardest league in the world (not neccearily the best) and then spent £140m this summer (not sure if Jesus was a summer purchase)

So low and behold the team that's spent mega money have improved shock horror (

Strangely too we had our highest net Siena in some time and were on course to finish with our record points and potentially highest ever place

 

[Robspur12]

Only if the team chasing us for 2nd wasn't Arsenal.

On the flipside, you could say we were lucky that all of the top teams bar Arsenal had woeful seasons with the only obstacle in our way being a team that narrowly avoided relegation the previous campaign but we couldn't take advantage.

We finished 3rd instead of 2nd because of indiscipline in previous games which led to 2 of our best players Alli and Dembele being suspended for final 2 games.

Once we conceded the title where we finished in top 3 was not important other than for local pride. Unlike in previous years where finishing below arsenal meant losing out on Champions League.

We have improved this year and are challenging Chelsea as we did Leicester last season. That shows are improvement from last season.

 

[Grays_1890]

On the flipside, you could say we were lucky that all of the top teams bar Arsenal had woeful seasons with the only obstacle in our way being a team that narrowly avoided relegation the previous campaign but we couldn't take advantage.

Like this season?

 

[Gazzasrightboot]

The direction this thread has taken is beggar's belief!! Some of you need your expectations reassessed!!!

Could someone explain to me why we should be expecting to be in the top 4 at all? What realistic and practical reason is there?

Do we earn/generate the revenue that is in the top 4 in the league? - No
Do we pay top 4 wages? - No
Do we spend top 4 transfer amounts each season? - No
Have we been in the top 4 consistently in the last 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 years? - No
Do we have a squad that is considered to be in the top 4 in the league - Ahh! Yes we do. And who got it there? Poch. Who made Rose the player he is now? Who made Walker the player he is now? Who made Dembele finally be the midfielder that we think he could have been? Who has brought Alderweireld, Dier and Alli to the club? Who has instilled a belief in our squad that has not been there for years? Who has finally got a Spurs team to be strong and not get bullied?

So please, someone, anyone, please please please tell me why we should be expecting to do any better AND win the league? What is this divine right that we are supposed to have that I have somehow missed. And please can anyone else explain to me why Poch should be doing better with what tools he has available to him?

Honestly, some of you are just plain unreasonable and will never be happy. If you allow yourself to get wound up by any Liverpool, Man United, Arsenal or Chelsea supporting friend, then that's your problem.

Poch may not be the perfect manager, but there is not another manager that I would rather have. Mourinho? No thanks. Guardiola? Nope. There is no other manager out there that has proven to be a success with our set of circumstances. Klopp did it with Borussia, but they were the second biggest team in Germany.

Now Leicester absolutely deserve all of the plaudits that they got last season. An absolute miracle. But look at them now.

 

[Grays_1890]

I believe he is a reasonable manager with a very good team. Tactically he makes to many howlers

See I argue he has been a massive part of building this very good team and creating a system and team identity that we have not had since, well I don't know when. When you look at Emirates Marketing Project who have many more good players than we do you appreciate what Poch brings to the set up. Yes he makes mistakes buy I would also say them come as a result of the final pieces missing from the overall jigsaw than it being him. Why I rate Poch so highly is he achieves what he achieves within the Spurs structure which means he has less budget than most and he might have to polish a few rough diamonds and bring through the youth and he does that and we now see the likes of Winks and Kane and Alli and we have seen without doubt the emergence of Rose and Walker week in week out under him.

We all want trophies, I want them, but I also want to support a club that in the league is a major threat every game and we do that.

Look at world football and our league, look at the teams that have top top money and look at the performances of their managers, I would say the most bar a few underachieve, Poch has taken us and put us up there week in week out and for me is a major part of all thats good at the moment.

 

[Grays_1890]

The direction this thread has taken is beggar's belief!! Some of you need your expectations reassessed!!!

I can't agree with this enough

Im the modern game the only thing that does not lie are players actions and the actions of their agents and for the first time that I can remember we have not had a Modric, Berbatov, Carrick or Sol moment and that speaks total volumes on not only the club but on Poch, if he was no good or the players felt we were underachieving they would have walked last season or season before in the example of Verts and Loris.

Do Spurs fans ever remember the days when we went to Barsley away needing a Colin Calderwood goal to send us into Wimbledon with hope of staying up? Look where we are as a club and open your eyes and look around us, we are the smallest fish in the pond we are in and for the second time in a row look to be the only club putting any effort into a title challenge.

I pinch myself when I watch us go 4-0 up by half time, what 3 times this season? Come on don't tell me Poch is not a major part of what is one of the most consistent times of our premiership lives

 

[DubaiSpur]

The direction this thread has taken is beggar's belief!! Some of you need your expectations reassessed!!!

Well, to be fair, @simon harris only mentioned that he wasn't fully convinced by Poch and that he was a reasonable manager with some flaws - hardly the worst sort of criticism one could throw at him, even if I personally disagree. The rest of it, I largely agree with, but then with this bit....

Poch may not be the perfect manager, but there is not another manager that I would rather have. Mourinho? No thanks. Guardiola? Nope. There is no other manager out there that has proven to be a success with our set of circumstances. Klopp did it with Borussia, but they were the second biggest team in Germany.

Now Leicester absolutely deserve all of the plaudits that they got last season. An absolute miracle. But look at them now.

...this is is where I think you're a bit off with your reasoning - although Klopp's Dortmund were the second biggest team in Germany when he left, they certainly weren't when he took over - they were still recovering from their mid-2000s financial crisis that had left them almost bankrupt multiple times, without ownership rights to their own stadium and (at one stage) reliant on a 2m loan from Bayern just to make payroll for a few months. They were a lower mid-table club, occasionally threatened by relegation (in 06-07) - certainly not the club we now associate with the title 'Borussia Dortmund'.

I'd say Klopp inherited a *worse* setup than Poch inherited, and it just does him a bit of a disservice to leave out that context when talking about his time at Dortmund. He took an ailing lower-midtable club fondly recalling past glories and turned them into Bundesliga champions in three years, repeated the feat in his fourth year in charge (setting a new German points record along the way) while adding the DFB Pokal to complete Dortmund's first double, and then spent the next three years getting to multiple finals (including a CL final) - only being denied further silverware by Pep's increasingly dominant Bayern.

He did a magnificent job from a worse starting position than Poch has had at Spurs - okay, we were struggling in a mental malaise, but Poch still inherited a club in full ownership of its own future, about to break ground on a new stadium, possessed of the best training ground in the country and an expensive, talented (if mentally weak) squad. Not to discount the great job Poch has subsequently done in turning us into the youngest, hungriest side in the league on a budget, but Klopp did something magnificent at Dortmund.