Gazza Dazzla
Chris Perry
Yep agreed DZA.
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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked
- Thread starter DubaiSpur
- Start date
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
I takes a bit of time to turnaround an oil tanker that's been heading in the wrong direction. There's always going to be a bit of a bump when you yank the steering wheel round onto full lock. The alternative though is just to keep plodding on in the wrong direction.
I thought we played alright yesterday actually. I thought Davies and Chiriches provided some decent width, and things were only congested because from the 8th minute Hull put 10 men behind the ball.
Yeah - Naughton has been very good this season. If there's anything we've learned from Poch (re Rose-Davies, Kaboul-Fazio, Capoue-Stambouli), it's that the new guy will have to bide his time and earn his place.
Didn't you say Naughton was off in January?
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
Are you describing Capoue there when you talk about the oil tanker?!?
As usual I disagree with your thoughts (unless you really were describing Capoue - in which case I agree 100%
)Firstly we were not previously heading in completely the wrong direction. Under Sherwood we were showing some signs of progress (especially in terms of an attacking unit). Yes we also did some things poorly, but we had clearly improved upon what went immediately before.
I agree that you expect a bump when you put the steering wheel on full lock, but how long should we expect that 'bump' to last? It seems to me that we have had the bump but we are still just as off course as we were previously (perhaps even more off course) Have we put the steering wheel on full lock and then kept it there?... Yes we have a different course to our previous one, but is it just a different wrong course?
We were not 'alright' yesterday at all. For the first half we were both outworked and outplayed. Hull had a real purpose when attacking and also when defending, they pressed us high up the pitch and looked to exploit our weaknesses out wide. Admittedly we played some nice pretty football at times, but it was all around the halfway line getting us nowhere in terms of threat to Hull's goal. Then when we turned over the ball as we did quite regularly (including in some terrible positions) we looked like we could concede at any time. We could've easily gone in at half time 3-0 down and it would've been deserved and game over.
I didn't think Hull put "10 men behind the ball" from the 8th minute. I think you saying this is disrespectful to the way they controlled the game in the first half. Instead I would say that in that first half Hull played with determination, shape and purpose. Yes when they conceded possession they quickly got numbers behind the ball, you talk about this as though it is a bad thing? I think it shows a team that are playing to their manager's instructions and a team that have a game-plan. Personally I wish that we would also put so much effort into getting a good defensive shape when we lose the ball. I have no idea if we do not do this because we are not told to or whether it is because the players simply can't be bothered?.... I think either reason isn't a good endorsement of our manager.
Just as against Villa, yesterday's game completely turned on another (fortunate) red card. It was only after this that we got our full backs forward and also after this that Hull stopped pressing us and dropped off and gave us time and space to play. I agree that from this point we did well. I think this shows that we have a number of players who can play lovely football but we have hardly any players who are prepared to fight for that 'right to play'.
I also find it interesting that yesterday we saw two games between your classic (as you would call them) "pie and chips managers" in Warnock and Bruce, against two new school "paella and tapas" managers. Clearly in both games the old school managers sent their teams out with the better gameplan - in fact I'm not sure that either of the new school managers actually had a gameplan?
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Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
Sorry I meant to say.... I think this is a brilliant summary from dza. There is always lots of talk about the most successful managers being ones that get time, but they get the time because they are successful - it doesn't necessarily work the other way round. Does it follow that Christian Gross have been successful at Spurs if he had been given time for example? What about Jacques Santini?!?
The only real occasion that I can think of where a manager was given time and then became successful was Ferguson at Man Utd - but the Man Utd board had the knowledge that Ferguson had an outstanding record in Scotland where he had broken the Glasgow Duopoly and also won a European trophy. Our board only have the knowledge that our manager has achieved a few midtable finshes with Espanyol before leaving them in the relegation places and then taken a (good) Southampton team to an upper midtable finish in the PL. Therefore in order to be rewarded with 'time' our manager will have to show our board that he is worthy of getting that time.
I hope more than anything that Pochettino gets it right at Spurs, but I still remain unconvinced that he will.
Millsy_Yiddo
Naybet
Are you describing Capoue there when you talk about the oil tanker?!?
As usual I disagree with your thoughts (unless you really were describing Capoue - in which case I agree 100%
Firstly we were not previously heading in completely the wrong direction. Under Sherwood we were showing some signs of progress (especially in terms of an attacking unit). Yes we also did some things poorly, but we had clearly improved upon what went immediately before.
I agree that you expect a bump when you put the steering wheel on full lock, but how long should we expect that 'bump' to last? It seems to me that we have had the bump but we are still just as off course as we were previously (perhaps even more off course) Have we put the steering wheel on full lock and then kept it there?... Yes we have a different course to our previous one, but is it just a different wrong course?
We were not 'alright' yesterday at all. For the first half we were both outworked and outplayed. Hull had a real purpose when attacking and also when defending, they pressed us high up the pitch and looked to exploit our weaknesses out wide. Admittedly we played some nice pretty football at times, but it was all around the halfway line getting us nowhere in terms of threat to Hull's goal. Then when we turned over the ball as we did quite regularly (including in some terrible positions) we looked like we could concede at any time. We could've easily gone in at half time 3-0 down and it would've been deserved and game over.
I didn't think Hull put "10 men behind the ball" from the 8th minute. I think you saying this is disrespectful to the way they controlled the game in the first half. Instead I would say that in that first half Hull played with determination, shape and purpose. Yes when they conceded possession they quickly got numbers behind the ball, you talk about this as though it is a bad thing? I think it shows a team that are playing to their manager's instructions and a team that have a game-plan. Personally I wish that we would also put so much effort into getting a good defensive shape when we lose the ball. I have no idea if we do not do this because we are not told to or whether it is because the players simply can't be bothered?.... I think either reason isn't a good endorsement of our manager.
Just as against Villa, yesterday's game completely turned on another (fortunate) red card. It was only after this that we got our full backs forward and also after this that Hull stopped pressing us and dropped off and gave us time and space to play. I agree that from this point we did well. I think this shows that we have a number of players who can play lovely football but we have hardly any players who are prepared to fight for that 'right to play'.
I also find it interesting that yesterday we saw two games between your classic (as you would call them) "pie and chips managers" in Warnock and Bruce, against two new school "paella and tapas" managers. Clearly in both games the old school managers sent their teams out with the better gameplan - in fact I'm not sure that either of the new school managers actually had a gameplan?
At worst yesterday we looked like AVB's team just before he left. Pass the ball about ad nausium, create nothing, lose it, get sliced open like a hot knife through butter on the counter attack and almost conceed.
At best, we looked very promising, really fluid, quick confident passing with lots of interplay. Lennon made a massive difference when he came on to be honest as he gave us some much needed width. But then again, as you say this was against 10 men.
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
Let's see whether he now keeps his place in the team. I think without that width he gives us we are horribly easy to defend against.
Agree with your previous post, right now, all we have is hope that Poch is the man, nothing is showing.
To me, the big indicators of if Poch is anywhere close to being the man for us comes with his next few team selections
- Team has to be build around Eriksen
- Kane needs to start, I would play him in every game, he's young, eager and in form
- Lennon needs to play, we need at least on e true winger on the pitch to address both our width/pace issues
- Kaboul/Capoue/Ade/Dier need to stay away from first team for now
If we see the same old same old, revert to what hasn't been working, then he is going to fail.
glorygloryeze
Ian Walker
Are you describing Capoue there when you talk about the oil tanker?!?
As usual I disagree with your thoughts (unless you really were describing Capoue - in which case I agree 100%
Firstly we were not previously heading in completely the wrong direction. Under Sherwood we were showing some signs of progress (especially in terms of an attacking unit). Yes we also did some things poorly, but we had clearly improved upon what went immediately before.
I agree that you expect a bump when you put the steering wheel on full lock, but how long should we expect that 'bump' to last? It seems to me that we have had the bump but we are still just as off course as we were previously (perhaps even more off course) Have we put the steering wheel on full lock and then kept it there?... Yes we have a different course to our previous one, but is it just a different wrong course?
We were not 'alright' yesterday at all. For the first half we were both outworked and outplayed. Hull had a real purpose when attacking and also when defending, they pressed us high up the pitch and looked to exploit our weaknesses out wide. Admittedly we played some nice pretty football at times, but it was all around the halfway line getting us nowhere in terms of threat to Hull's goal. Then when we turned over the ball as we did quite regularly (including in some terrible positions) we looked like we could concede at any time. We could've easily gone in at half time 3-0 down and it would've been deserved and game over.
I didn't think Hull put "10 men behind the ball" from the 8th minute. I think you saying this is disrespectful to the way they controlled the game in the first half. Instead I would say that in that first half Hull played with determination, shape and purpose. Yes when they conceded possession they quickly got numbers behind the ball, you talk about this as though it is a bad thing? I think it shows a team that are playing to their manager's instructions and a team that have a game-plan. Personally I wish that we would also put so much effort into getting a good defensive shape when we lose the ball. I have no idea if we do not do this because we are not told to or whether it is because the players simply can't be bothered?.... I think either reason isn't a good endorsement of our manager.
Just as against Villa, yesterday's game completely turned on another (fortunate) red card. It was only after this that we got our full backs forward and also after this that Hull stopped pressing us and dropped off and gave us time and space to play. I agree that from this point we did well. I think this shows that we have a number of players who can play lovely football but we have hardly any players who are prepared to fight for that 'right to play'.
I also find it interesting that yesterday we saw two games between your classic (as you would call them) "pie and chips managers" in Warnock and Bruce, against two new school "paella and tapas" managers. Clearly in both games the old school managers sent their teams out with the better gameplan - in fact I'm not sure that either of the new school managers actually had a gameplan?
Loving your definitons here; if we were to do a breakdown of the Final top 8 in the PL of each of the last few seasons and breakdown the teams between managed by "Pie and Chips managers" vs "paella and tapas", I wonder how the breakdown would look? :-k
Going by last season, I would say:
1. P&T (is this actualy fair though??)
2. P&T
3. P&T (is this actually fair though??)
4. P&T
5. P&T
6. P&C (?)
7. P&C
8. P&T
What do others reckon?
Are you describing Capoue there when you talk about the oil tanker?!?
As usual I disagree with your thoughts (unless you really were describing Capoue - in which case I agree 100%
Firstly we were not previously heading in completely the wrong direction. Under Sherwood we were showing some signs of progress (especially in terms of an attacking unit). Yes we also did some things poorly, but we had clearly improved upon what went immediately before.
I agree that you expect a bump when you put the steering wheel on full lock, but how long should we expect that 'bump' to last? It seems to me that we have had the bump but we are still just as off course as we were previously (perhaps even more off course) Have we put the steering wheel on full lock and then kept it there?... Yes we have a different course to our previous one, but is it just a different wrong course?
We were not 'alright' yesterday at all. For the first half we were both outworked and outplayed. Hull had a real purpose when attacking and also when defending, they pressed us high up the pitch and looked to exploit our weaknesses out wide. Admittedly we played some nice pretty football at times, but it was all around the halfway line getting us nowhere in terms of threat to Hull's goal. Then when we turned over the ball as we did quite regularly (including in some terrible positions) we looked like we could concede at any time. We could've easily gone in at half time 3-0 down and it would've been deserved and game over.
I didn't think Hull put "10 men behind the ball" from the 8th minute. I think you saying this is disrespectful to the way they controlled the game in the first half. Instead I would say that in that first half Hull played with determination, shape and purpose. Yes when they conceded possession they quickly got numbers behind the ball, you talk about this as though it is a bad thing? I think it shows a team that are playing to their manager's instructions and a team that have a game-plan. Personally I wish that we would also put so much effort into getting a good defensive shape when we lose the ball. I have no idea if we do not do this because we are not told to or whether it is because the players simply can't be bothered?.... I think either reason isn't a good endorsement of our manager.
Just as against Villa, yesterday's game completely turned on another (fortunate) red card. It was only after this that we got our full backs forward and also after this that Hull stopped pressing us and dropped off and gave us time and space to play. I agree that from this point we did well. I think this shows that we have a number of players who can play lovely football but we have hardly any players who are prepared to fight for that 'right to play'.
I also find it interesting that yesterday we saw two games between your classic (as you would call them) "pie and chips managers" in Warnock and Bruce, against two new school "paella and tapas" managers. Clearly in both games the old school managers sent their teams out with the better gameplan - in fact I'm not sure that either of the new school managers actually had a gameplan?
Spot on. As i've stated before, I'd be gutted if it all goes wrong with Pochettino, but there has to be some progress or signs that he has a handle on what is wrong and what needs to be changed and a plan to put things right.
Obviously those at the club will know if this is the case a lot more than we will.
I don't have it that we were going in completely the wrong direction. As much as it was a bit neanderthal at times, basically Sherwood showed this squad is more than good enough to comfortably put away pretty much anyone from 4th downwards in the league. To claim that Poch has come into something shockingly bad is completely wide of the mark.
I'm sure that part of the reason Poch took the job was he looked at the players on paper, Adebayor, Soldado, Eriksen, Lamela, Chadli, Capoue, Dembele, Lloris and thought there is a lot of talent in that squad i can work with.
Half of Hull's team contained players let go by Spurs because they weren't good enough to play for us, yet those players ran rings around ours until they had a man sent off. The performances of the team have been terrible and the only two wins have been pretty fortune in that they've come against teams who are completely woeful themselves and out of form and also against teams that dominated us comprehensively from the off, out played, out thought, out fought us on every level, then had a man sent-off and got screwed in the later moments of the game.
If the players were totally unsuited to Poch's style of play, why weren't more of them let go? Why was Holtby let go, who i thought would have been ideal? Why isn't Lennon used more often, who played great in Poch's system in pre-season and also seems to be someone who always does what the manager tells him?
It's just upsetting that i thought we were getting a manager who would make the current squad play better, but instead it looks like we've got someone who is going to completely butcher the squad again and start from scratch. While it looks like he is going to get the backing ultimately in this regard based on the club's recent actions in appointing Mitchell and rebuilding the scouting network and noises that the players are on trial, not the manager. I'm always a bit skeptical of managers that are so reliant on 'their plan', 'their way' and i'm always worried that as we can see with Rogers this season, when everything is going well, these managers are fine, but its when it isn't working that they struggle as there is often not much of a plan B.
Well said, if we end up selling 6-8 1st team players to make Poch's system work, we made a mistake.
Mumorn
Vic Buckingham
Swansea interested. Would be disappointed if we signed him though
metalgear
Nayim
feels to me like poch is intent on making his system work and we are looking at square pegs in round holes. poch = avb Mk.II
Millsy_Yiddo
Naybet
If it means we end up regularly challenging for trophies and sitting in the top 4, explain why you think it would be a mistake?
Bedfordspurs
Martin Peters
We have already been there until very recently.
It feels like we're trying t break something first before fixing it, rather than taking the opportunity to tweak it as it develops. In simple terms it's a revolution rather than an evolution and for me it's a step too far too quickly
It may work out very beneficial long term but if it doesn't then it's a lot of time and more importantly money wasted yet again of following a system....
It also strikes me as making the game far more complicated that it needs to be wen your reliant on a system rather than on talent, ability and adaptability
But we really have no alternative now IMO other than sticking with whatever the plan is
Millsy_Yiddo
Naybet
I don't think you can really say that we've either been regularly challenging for trophies or finishing in the top 4.
I also don't think it would be revolution verses evolution. In all llikelyhood, Poch would hold on to most of the starting 11 if he was to 'tear up' the squad. But even if he did, why employ him as manager if we don't want to take the risk that he might be wrong in the long term?
sc25
Banned
GB, not sure Hull always had 10 men behind the ball. Even if they did, you need to have a plan for such things. If we had put in that performance last season, under either manager, how would it have been received, and would you have been critical at all? Got out of jail, 10 men was reason we won, Hull should have been 3-0 up, Eriksen saved his ass, and such like?
Notmegov
Roman Pavlyuchenko
This club needs a revolution, with the rumors that came out at the weekend now wonder he is struggling to implement his philosophy if some of the senior players are just refusing to work that system. He is the boss and he should stick to it, if people that worked for me started refusing to implement my ideas and work plans they would be out the door.
LutonSpurs
Eric Dear
I don't think Poch is struggling making his system work, I think he is struggling making any system work with this lot of players.
Sherwood said the same when we got trounced by the big boys and won a lot of games in similar vain to Villa and Hull. The players have mentality issues. And maybe ability issues. If he needs to complete re-form the squad. Sell a few, bring in a few and promote some kids. Have this season and next to get us working. Fine. So be it.
Sherwood said the same when we got trounced by the big boys and won a lot of games in similar vain to Villa and Hull. The players have mentality issues. And maybe ability issues. If he needs to complete re-form the squad. Sell a few, bring in a few and promote some kids. Have this season and next to get us working. Fine. So be it.