Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[nayenezgani]

Mate, I'll take a good run of form at the cost of any stick/debate/whatever ..

But the test comes on the week-end, and again I'd argue we need to see players rewarded for such a result, if it's back to changing 3 to 5 players for no other reason than rotation you risk everything.

Still confused at 4-0 up we left N'dombele on for another 90 when he seems our most important midfielder.

Something, something, negative flimflam... Repeat.

 

[Raziel]

Something, something, negative flimflam... Repeat.

So you are going to be delighted when we start with N'dombele on the bench this week-end because he played 90 tonight?

 

[nayenezgani]

So you are going to be delighted when we start with N'dombele on the bench this week-end because he played 90 tonight?

It's Wednesday. If he's not fit to contribute by Saturday afternoon he won't play, no. But if he's starting to adjust to Poch's regime then I wouldn't be surprised to see him start at the weekend and play for a solid 70-80 minutes.

Most top four sides would operate with the same expectations.

 

[glorygloryeze]

what is influencing your choice of characteristics to compare Redknapp and Pochettino with? Surely if you're appraising behaviour, you take it as a whole? Earlier in the thread you compared Pochettino's results to Redknapp, and now sections of behaviour too. No manager will win if you compare the best parts of one with the most negative interpretation of the other; surely you have to take the money laundering (and the like) into account too? Poch didn't do this, so he gets a +1 from me!

Let's reframe this a bit; which manager would you rather have right now to manage spurs? Really broaden the net - don't worry about gettable. I'd change Pochettino for Ferguson, I'm pretty sure (in his prime, not from his pension) for example. If I narrow it to who is currently in career (regardless of would come) it gets harder to choose. I can't think of a name that I would prefer that is realistically available. I'm happy to keep Pochettino (who has been a top tier/world class manager over his tenure taken holistically) - even if it was dumb luck the first time, I've never seen a Spurs team get that lucky before, and I don't mind waiting for that kind of luck again.

To answer your first paragraph, Pochettino's USP is the way in which he projects a certain ype of leadership which transcends the training pitch, to the point whereby he would often by the club's main PR. He is also a manager that has built his methodology on cloear principles: work ethic, no primadonna attitudes, one-for-all-and-all-for-one and not limiting yourself ("you must always have belief" etc). Redknapp from a purely principled leadership angle doesn't come close. So when Poch himself starts seemingly going against HIS OWN principles and says "trophies actually are not important", "i might leave and go elsewhere if we win our first trophy under me" he takes himself down towards Redknapp's levels, who was himself nowhere near as principled as Pochettino but publicly flirted with leaving us and takijng his eye offf the ball and, well, we know the rest.
If anything i judge Pochettino more harshly because of the principles he has that Redknapp didn't.

The second paragraph: i'd much rather Poch turn it around tbh, because A) this is now his squad and has been moulded in his image, for better or for worse and B) i simply don't trust the FOOTBALLING ambition of Levy and the board to actually get a manager who would be able to take to a higher level than the one Pochettino has taken to.
I haven't seen many signs that Pochettino is able to turn things round tbh - and i am still less forgiving in general given his outbursts - but one can only hope today is finally a turning point (though i thought that after Palace....)

 

[thfcsteff]

Mate, I'll take a good run of form at the cost of any stick/debate/whatever ..

But the test comes on the week-end, and again I'd argue we need to see players rewarded for such a result, if it's back to changing 3 to 5 players for no other reason than rotation you risk everything.

Still confused at 4-0 up we left N'dombele on for another 90 when he seems our most important midfielder.

Never about "giving stick"...opinions are opinions, so long as that is what they remain.

I think leaving Ndombele on for the whole whack in this environment is a safe way to get 90 under his belt/a safe environment for him to play it out. As much as people don't like to around these parts, my view is you have to trust that the manager knows what he is doing given the info and data he receives per player. He did, after all, want the player and would thus be reasonably assumed to want him in as much as possible as quickly as possible. But he also does not want him breaking down with injury because he isn't fit enough, and perhaps also wants to make sure his focus and concentration grows.

I think in 6 months we will look back and say he handled the situation very well TBH...

 

[Jordinho]

Mate, I'll take a good run of form at the cost of any stick/debate/whatever ..

But the test comes on the week-end, and again I'd argue we need to see players rewarded for such a result, if it's back to changing 3 to 5 players for no other reason than rotation you risk everything.

Still confused at 4-0 up we left N'dombele on for another 90 when he seems our most important midfielder.

I'm seeing shades of Ramos. Whether it's intentional I don't know, but our strongest teams and best performances seem to reserved for CL games. You'd expect a new back four as we always swap FBs and Dier seemingly needs two weeks rest between each appearance, but the rest of the team should be the same. No Winks or Eriksen.

 

[braineclipse]

And so we enter the next phase of the debate. I’m looking forward to when we hit a good run of form, and it being ‘well we would have had this good run of form sooner if the manager just did what I wanted him to do.’ Never mind the long term considerations of anything he was doing in the first place.

he also left Winks at home - fully committed, non contract rebel Winks. Maybe leaving him out was just as effective as leaving out Eriksen? He also played Rose, transfer listed Rose, who assisted a great goal. Maybe there are different things going on, different considerations to be made?

I’m all for different opinions, but I feel like people are so keen to prove their idea of what is right and what should be happening correct, which I just find an interesting position to take with certainty when we don’t have all of the information. I think it’s fine to argue that if we did different things we maybe could have gotten better short term results, but Poch has clearly been doing a lot of what he has been doing for the longer term.

I agree to some extent with your points. And it's always too easy to claim the counterfactual that never gets tested, we will never know what would have happened if Pochettino had done differently, perhaps we could even have been worse.

At the same time I think Pochettino has been getting things wrong more often than previously. Not looking to rehash already discussed specifics. If we can find some form and with that confident happy Pochettino making good decisions can return that would be very good.

 

[Raziel]

I'm seeing shades of Ramos. Whether it's intentional I don't know, but our strongest teams and best performances seem to reserved for CL games. You'd expect a new back four as we always swap FBs and Dier seemingly needs two weeks rest between each appearance, but the rest of the team should be the same. No Winks or Eriksen.

Interesting comparison, I think it's easier to motivate players for CL (as vs. PL everyday grind), It's possible he thinks this is a weaker side (Foyth RB, Dier CB, no Eriksen starting).

 

[thfcsteff]

Interesting comparison, I think it's easier to motivate players for CL (as vs. PL everyday grind), It's possible he thinks this is a weaker side (Foyth RB, Dier CB, no Eriksen starting).

A bit unfair.
He nominated Foyth as his starting RB for the season before injury, he started the season without Eriksen...I think (in fact) last night was a very good look at the sort of mkII he wants to build (Sessegnon featuring, a couple of other improvements needed)...

 

[Raziel]

A bit unfair.
He nominated Foyth as his starting RB for the season before injury, he started the season without Eriksen...I think (in fact) last night was a very good look at the sort of mkII he wants to build (Sessegnon featuring, a couple of other improvements needed)...

I hope so, but I doubt Dier is first choice CB, we know Rose is not first choice LB, so really can't tell. We needed the win for confidence, but a draw would have done, we desperately need the win in the PL this week-end.

He has to settle on his best 11 as fast as fitness allows, form comes from continuity, not playing the same 11 in 93 games doesn't help

 

[NoLimits01]

@Raziel how do we know Rose isn’t his first choice? Did I miss a Poch press conference?

 

[Raziel]

@Raziel how do we know Rose isn’t his first choice? Did I miss a Poch press conference?

Mate, if he's first choice I'll just go ahead and slit my wrist now .. He's been poor every game (he was probably our worst player last night), and Davies has at least been solid if not better every game he's got a chance.

I think Poch went for trying Lo Celso in starting role, but don't think it was first choice lineup and did have a few oddities in it. As I mention, can't see Dier or Rose as first choice, perhaps Foyth rotates with Aurier until a choice is made, Sissoko played a fair amount in front of N'dombele last night which I thought odd

 

[thfcsteff]

I hope so, but I doubt Dier is first choice CB, we know Rose is not first choice LB, so really can't tell. We needed the win for confidence, but a draw would have done, we desperately need the win in the PL this week-end.

He has to settle on his best 11 as fast as fitness allows, form comes from continuity, not playing the same 11 in 93 games doesn't help

Agreed.
He has said for a while that it would take a while, and I agree it has taken just that. I would further agree that he should have a first 11 which played together more than twice in a row, but equally I hope he has the type of quality he wants to rotate in key areas when necessary.
Dier is an interesting case; if he wants to be in the first 11 -and given that perhaps many of us believe he has qualities which would be really helpful when fit and running- maybe he is playing himself into that option. the major problem is it leaves us with no natural left-footed CB, but perhaps we can ride that for a while?
I do think we absolutely need to win on Saturday, and that there won't be too many more chances this season to bounce well off the back of a stylish CL win like this.
More than anything, I still think that IF we can remain within 8 points (at the worst) of the top 4, that a strong run is possible as the "new side" gels. Leicester are a Vardy injury away from issues (I tipped them to be strong this season with the caveat that I didn't know if their squad could hold), Arse seem in turmoil and again, as much as I think Lampard is good, there are a lot of young players at Chelski who could well fade.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Mate, if he's first choice I'll just go ahead and slit my wrist now .. He's been poor every game (he was probably our worst player last night), and Davies has at least been solid if not better every game he's got a chance.

I think Poch went for trying Lo Celso in starting role, but don't think it was first choice lineup and did have a few oddities in it. As I mention, can't see Dier or Rose as first choice, perhaps Foyth rotates with Aurier until a choice is made, Sissoko played a fair amount in front of N'dombele last night which I thought odd

I hope it's only a cry for help and you don't actually cut the main artery!

I'm struggling to see how Rose was our worst player last night to be honest? I thought that he probably gave a slightly better performance than the Foyth at right back with both of them being fine?

I agree that Dier isn't first choice at centre half, but I'm not sure why anyone would be so worried about 'first choice' anyway at this stage of the season? Injuries/suspensions/form dictate that all other than the luckiest manager is likely to have to play 25 players over the course of the season.

 

[Raziel]

I hope it's only a cry for help and you don't actually cut the main artery!

I'm struggling to see how Rose was our worst player last night to be honest? I thought that he probably gave a slightly better performance than the Foyth at right back with both of them being fine?

I agree that Dier isn't first choice at centre half, but I'm not sure why anyone would be so worried about 'first choice' anyway at this stage of the season? Injuries/suspensions/form dictate that all other than the luckiest manager is likely to have to play 25 players over the course of the season.

The first choice conversation was I think folks were trying to determine if last night was closer to what we can expect as best 11.

Rose was actually pretty bad (all opinion of course), effort is there, but positioning, pass choices, losing possession, I actually thought Foyth was a lot tidier (not amazing, but good enough)

 

[parklane1]

And so we enter the next phase of the debate. I’m looking forward to when we hit a good run of form, and it being ‘well we would have had this good run of form sooner if the manager just did what I wanted him to do.’ Never mind the long term considerations of anything he was doing in the first place.

he also left Winks at home - fully committed, non contract rebel Winks. Maybe leaving him out was just as effective as leaving out Eriksen? He also played Rose, transfer listed Rose, who assisted a great goal. Maybe there are different things going on, different considerations to be made?

I’m all for different opinions, but I feel like people are so keen to prove their idea of what is right and what should be happening correct, which I just find an interesting position to take with certainty when we don’t have all of the information. I think it’s fine to argue that if we did different things we maybe could have gotten better short term results, but Poch has clearly been doing a lot of what he has been doing for the longer term.

You know that is what will happen.

 

[Mosquito_Coasting]

A bit unfair.
He nominated Foyth as his starting RB for the season before injury, he started the season without Eriksen...I think (in fact) last night was a very good look at the sort of mkII he wants to build (Sessegnon featuring, a couple of other improvements needed)...

Agreed Steff, I actually felt hope for the first time in a while when Sessegnon, N’Dombele and Lo Celso were all on the pitch together. 3 players is a considerable amount of a team. I’m still unsure what is happening at the club and if Poch can turn this round but at least there was a glimpse of the future there. And the problem at the moment is breaking through to the future in this period which feels very much like a winding down. I’m not sure if that attitude is coming from Poch or the players but I hope he still truly wants to create 2.0 and can manage the squad through this season to start that process in earnest the next. I thought we looked fresh yesterday, at least until Eriksen came on and started playing so far below first gear it was incredible.

 

[lurker of old]

A win on Saturday will go a long way to rebuilding everyone's confidence: The Board, the manager, the players and the fans. I'm looking forward to the game- should be a good atmosphere, hopefully that will nudge us over the line against Sheffield, who are presumably playing at their optimum and are due for a fall. Score early and it could be another Crystal Palace performance......

 

[MKSpur]

A win on Saturday will go a long way to rebuilding everyone's confidence: The Board, the manager, the players and the fans. I'm looking forward to the game- should be a good atmosphere, hopefully that will nudge us over the line against Sheffield, who are presumably playing at their optimum and are due for a fall. Score early and it could be another Crystal Palace performance......

This level of optimism is great to see

Ban?

 

[benp]

To answer your first paragraph, Pochettino's USP is the way in which he projects a certain ype of leadership which transcends the training pitch, to the point whereby he would often by the club's main PR. He is also a manager that has built his methodology on cloear principles: work ethic, no primadonna attitudes, one-for-all-and-all-for-one and not limiting yourself ("you must always have belief" etc). Redknapp from a purely principled leadership angle doesn't come close. So when Poch himself starts seemingly going against HIS OWN principles and says "trophies actually are not important", "i might leave and go elsewhere if we win our first trophy under me" he takes himself down towards Redknapp's levels, who was himself nowhere near as principled as Pochettino but publicly flirted with leaving us and takijng his eye offf the ball and, well, we know the rest.
If anything i judge Pochettino more harshly because of the principles he has that Redknapp didn't.

The second paragraph: i'd much rather Poch turn it around tbh, because A) this is now his squad and has been moulded in his image, for better or for worse and B) i simply don't trust the FOOTBALLING ambition of Levy and the board to actually get a manager who would be able to take to a higher level than the one Pochettino has taken to.
I haven't seen many signs that Pochettino is able to turn things round tbh - and i am still less forgiving in general given his outbursts - but one can only hope today is finally a turning point (though i thought that after Palace....)

rated. i agree with what you say for me it's not judging more harshly, i'm just more disappointed afterwards. I think I don't actually understand football very well personally, but we've been unlucky a lot, and the lads look like they are trying. I think it will turn around.