Bedfordspurs
Martin Peters
TBF he did exactly this when he came in
He stuck with the old guard for half a season then binned them off
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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked
- Thread starter DubaiSpur
- Start date
He stuck with the old guard for half a season then binned them off
Yes, but again, neither Klopp nor Rodgers was 11th-14th .. this is whataboutism mate
We are not languishing in 6-8th place, we are in 11th with 23 points from last 20 games, without an away win in 20.
Every excuse for Poch, e.g. wages, not having the players he wants, no refresh, etc. only works if you are comparing to a top side, but typically compared to anyone from 8th down Poch has it fudging great, everyone of those manager would murder for this squad, salaries, facilities, chairman, etc. And it's against those sides we have been underperforming for over a season (45 odd games)
Robspur12
John Lacy
Mate we are going around in circles and we will not agree. We finished above all those teams from 8th down last season, reached a major cup final and a semi. None of those other managers came close to achieving what Poch did. So over a season is OTT but it suits a narrative so you go for it.
Yes we are bad at the moment no argument there. However, the issues in the squad remain, no player who can cover for Eriksen except lo Celso who was signed on deadline day and has been injured. Like it or not Eriksen was the player who knitted the front 4 together. Without a player like him we lack the creativitt to bring the likes of Moura and Alli into the game.
No cover for a broken Wanyama because we were unable to sell Wanyama and won't bring in an alternative due to restrictions on our wages. Cover now bought for Dembele, but that cover is unuse to the PL and needs to settle.
Bring in 2 players, cover for Eriksen and a ball winning midfielder and the dynamic changes. We will attack with purpose and defend more effectively. I have already seen us defend better in the last 2 games and we would have scraped a win yesterday if Son wasn't sent off.
I don't get some of the decisions Poch makes but there is no doubt we are on a down cycle with the team. I genuinely believe anyone coming in would also need to buy the same type of player. So because of what he has done in the past I feel that Poch should still be that man. Levy seems to agree - for now.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Was it that long?
Either way, it was a different situation. New to the club, he had to set his standards and let things play out so that his authority could be recognised.
Effectively gave them the rope to hang themselves with.
After 5 years, it just isnt the same. It should be - it should be the case of "Perform for me or someone else will", but thats not how he seems to be operating now.
Bedfordspurs
Martin Peters
Yeah it was 6 months ish
And I agree it isn’t the same after 5 years but it’s another rebuild none the less
glorygloryeze
Ian Walker
A rebuild of your own squad that you have assembled over 5 years is totally different to rebuilding a squad that you've inherited.
The squad Poch has now is much better than that he inherited, so it is fair enough if painful, but not 3-wins-in-11-games-and-no-away-wins-in-PL-since-January painful...
The squad Poch has now is much better than that he inherited, so it is fair enough if painful, but not 3-wins-in-11-games-and-no-away-wins-in-PL-since-January painful...
The run is over 45 games now (a season is 38), the only reason we have finished above anyone over 15th position is the timing of our brick run.
I'm not as concerned with who we buy, it's what can the manager get out of the very good players we already have, because Poch isn't getting the best out of them, and I'm not sure how buying a FB and a DM will suddenly get the other players to respond to him after they clearly haven't been for 10+ months.
Robspur12
John Lacy
It's not been a season though. It started after the Burnley game in February. Before that game we were being touted as potential champions.
The players are responding. Kane is scoring Son is Son, Dele is scoring again (2 goals in last 3 prem games), the defence looks better. The problem is the creativity and winning the ball back when we lose it. Both of which can be rectified by getting in the right player and allowing time for the players bought in the summer to settle in.
A new manager will have the same issues with squad and more than likely identify the same solutions.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Quick question - do you agree with the idea that teams tend to have a 4 year cycle of performance? It’s an idea that Klopp, Fergie, Zidane, Simeone and others have all referenced at various points.
If you agree with that, can you see that making less changes to our squad compared to our rivals over the same time frame is going to make these challenges even more pronounced?
It is possible to refresh. Fergie did it a number of times and Simeone did it in quite a big way this summer. But you have to actually do the refreshing, which we just haven’t done yet.
Armchair Expert
Vedran Corluka
Doesn't mean you have to suddenly start using bizarre (non-existent?) tactics, make dreadful substitutions and generally struggle to get a tune out of a very good bunch of players. You don't have to play Kane in midfield and you don't have to take 18 months to integrate the new signings you do have.
However, most importantly, you don't have to give ambiguous press conferences for over a year and constantly flirt with leaving. What manager has ever threatened to walk out before a champions league final?
The same happened with Redknapp. He lost all the goodwill he had built up over his tenure when he flirted with England. Poch has done the same. We're not even sure if he wants to be here and the enormous leeway he would likely have received has dissipated somewhat due to his own entirely avoidable and unnecessary actions. His disloyalty reached a peak at exactly the time his on-field performances were on the wain. It was terribly managed and appalling timing from him politically.
So yes, he has faced challenges - but doesn't every manager? I'm sure lot's of managers would kill to face the issues Poch is currently tackling if they had the tools at his disposal. And it's not like he hasn't been sacked before either.
glorygloryeze
Ian Walker
Can i ask:
1) The day before the season got underway, did you expect us to have only won 3 games out of 11 and still no away won since January?
2) Should the squad that we have right now be behind the likes of Bournemouth, Brighton or Sheffield United?
3) What have you seen in our play since the debacle at Brighton that suggests we are about to arrest our malaise?
4) Where do you think we will finish in the PL table as a minimum this season?
Legohamster
Cecil Poynton
Yeah, I think it’s time for a change now.
Gomes injury will cover up another poor showing, Poor selection and sitting on his hands.
Gomes injury will cover up another poor showing, Poor selection and sitting on his hands.
Absolutely, Klopp admitted in Germany his players stopped listening to him in the last year
However (and this is where most of the disagreement lies I suspect)
- SAF and Simeone were/are serial winners (with trophies in the closet) that earned them that right. I also believe none of those two had a run outside top 10 in their league.
- Somehow mythology has made Poch's top 4 and final appearances a false equivalence. Add @Armchair Expert expert's point Poch has burnt a lot of his credit in the bank
But the answer is one of the following
- Refreshing the manager makes an instant change for all, club, players, fans
- Refreshing a few players is a longer term impact that may or may not work and creates an uncomfortable interim period where the "is it working" feeling is constant
- Change the manager and some of the player .. get the short and medium term impact
I don't see how the last option isn't the only possible logical answer, least risk option
glorygloryeze
Ian Walker
You do wonder if Levy and the board and their shenanigans have frazzled Poch's mind to the point where he overplayed his hand politically and became over-reliant on the frankly Hippy stuff...
If us as fans are perplexed by it, you can bet some key members of the playing stuff are..
At least it's finally coming to light it's about short v long term. Change the manager and we can potentially save this season, he'll likely identify the same issues Poch has and look to bring in players in the same positions that we're looking to atm and we'll lose the same players that we're going to lose anyway.
Then come next seaon we get to see if the manager can settle at the club, which is always a lottery (and to compound matters he has to oversee a churn of players) just ask Chelsea, United, City, Arsenal and Liverpool - all clubs who with more money to spend than us and higher reputations in the game and all have patchy records with managers, even sure thing won all there is to manage managers - just as much chance we end up with the next Emery/LVG than it is we appoint the next Guardiola/Klopp (in fact the odds are probably stacked against getting it right? Beyond new manager bounce anyway) so medium-long term the outlook is uncertain, but at least we get to maybe have a good 2nd half of this season, Or we back Poch over the transition which has just begun having a fair idea what he can do here (doing it here being quite an important factor) when he has a squad of players not at the end of its cycle.
Then come next seaon we get to see if the manager can settle at the club, which is always a lottery (and to compound matters he has to oversee a churn of players) just ask Chelsea, United, City, Arsenal and Liverpool - all clubs who with more money to spend than us and higher reputations in the game and all have patchy records with managers, even sure thing won all there is to manage managers - just as much chance we end up with the next Emery/LVG than it is we appoint the next Guardiola/Klopp (in fact the odds are probably stacked against getting it right? Beyond new manager bounce anyway) so medium-long term the outlook is uncertain, but at least we get to maybe have a good 2nd half of this season, Or we back Poch over the transition which has just begun having a fair idea what he can do here (doing it here being quite an important factor) when he has a squad of players not at the end of its cycle.
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BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Sorry, but the talking down of regular top 4 finishes and a CL final is just getting silly now. It was not always destined to happen. The fact that we have had the last 5 years is an absolute triumph, and it is precisely why he has the credit in the bank that he does.
glorygloryeze
Ian Walker
Tbf, we have a fair idea that he can march us up near the top and fail...and that's when many factors re squad etc are in his favour. We also have a fair idea that he doesn't rotate that much, has what look like 'favourites' who often play no matter how poor their form, and his teams face burnout after a few years.
We need more than what we've seen and there is no guarantee that Poch knows hows to manage a club at the level he has taken us. He can't even drop Eriksen, when Eriksen is playing worse than Andros Townsend ever did for us!
So far, all the above is resting on hope; there's not even a certain level of tangible success (which ultimately the football world judges a team and manager on) to pin such hope on. Basically, a lot of evidence shows that 2017 is as good as it gets with Poch, and as good as that was, there was still nothing tangible to show for it, which makes going for 'phase 2' or whatever one can call it a bigger gamble than it would have been assumed even a few months ago.
Say what you want about Levy, but I don't think there are any surprises, everyone knows we have a cost structure and we manage a budget.
My opinion is Poch has been on the fence re Eriksen/Toby/others where the message to Levy should have been get rid of them in summer, don't bother trying to re-sign, I want them sold and I want the money re-invested early. The fact that Poch is still playing Eriksen and Toby indicates he is still part of the problem of not making the refresh happen.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
I think we’ll finish top 6. Right now I don’t think being behind Brighton etc means much considering we are just over a quarter of the way through the season. I think we have started to look more solid since Brighton, which was an atrocious day.
I’m not denying things aren’t good right now. But my question remains, if it is generally accepted wisdom that a 4 year cycle is what you get from one core group in sport, why exactly should we be immune from this? The idea that this comment in this presser or this player plays instead of that one is a total misnomer to the broader issue - that by not adequately replacing the players that we needed to, we were storing up a period of struggle.
The idea that Poch doesn’t have credit in the bank because he’s not a ‘serial winner’ greatly diminishes just how fantastic the achievements we have made over the last 4 years have been. And frankly accusing him of hippy stuff or whatever else we are now seeing in this thread is disrespectful garbage. Not that he would read it but it just makes us look like entitled tossers. He was making the same tactical choices and subs etc when we were winning, now we’re losing and these are the problems...despite the fact that generally received wisdom from most at the top of sport suggest a 4 year cycle is what you get, and we didn’t refresh to get ahead of our downward curve on that cycle and everyone of our rivals, plus some new contenders, have.