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ITK

I believe they are not looking to sell and would continue to discourage approaches, as they have done already, unless circumstances change drastically for ENIC. You believe their end game is to sell, but they are not looking to sell (which seems remarkably like a contradiction to me). I don't believe they have an end game like that all, and they have provided no evidence of it, so far, unless you accept rumours from some of the self-proclaimed "ITK" mongers, as evidence. As an analogy, I have no intention of selling my house, and my end game is to die there, but if someone were to make me an offer that I felt at the time was too good to turn down, I'd sell, but I'm not about to waste my time investigating what I might get for the place, since it is irrelevant to my current intentions.
I believe that while there is the prospect of their ownership and expertise continuing to provide increasing returns in terms of wealth (though, I accept, not, currently, in terms of cash dividends), or at least as good or better than they can derive elsewhere, they will continue working towards that end.
That is the difference between us, as I see it.
Time will tell.

That analogy only holds up if you bought your house as an investment. ENIC owned other clubs before buying us, they might be Spurs fans but I do not believe that this was a sentimental investment.

At some stage the Premier League bubble will burst and the value of clubs will crash. I am not saying that is imminent but clever investors will want to get out before that happens.
 
Look at it from a prospective buyer's POV. Why would he want to buy when the price is at its highest?

I know someone who is an expert on football financing (sports industry academic). He reckons anyone looking to make money out of the game at this point in time needs to buy Leeds or Wolves. I.e. teams at the bottom but with big potential to grow, rather than any club near the top.
 
I know someone who is an expert on football financing (sports industry academic). He reckons anyone looking to make money out of the game at this point in time needs to buy Leeds or Wolves. I.e. teams at the bottom but with big potential to grow, rather than any club near the top.

The Southampton approach.

There are quite a few teams in the Football League who have spent a fair amount of time in the top flight. I am amazed that Sheffield Wednesday have been out of the top flight for so long.
 
The Southampton approach.

There are quite a few teams in the Football League who have spent a fair amount of time in the top flight. I am amazed that Sheffield Wednesday have been out of the top flight for so long.

Derby, Sheffield United and maybe Forest too.

All get big attendances and the EPL has become so concentrated on London and Lancashire that there's a massive gap in Yorkshire and the East Midland (Leicester now aside)
 
Derby, Sheffield United and maybe Forest too.

All get big attendances and the EPL has become so concentrated on London and Lancashire that there's a massive gap in Yorkshire and the East Midland (Leicester now aside)

Birmingham would be another. It will be interesting to see whether Brighton can establish themselves if they go up. They have a decent catchment area with very little competition.
 
Birmingham would be another. It will be interesting to see whether Brighton can establish themselves if they go up. They have a decent catchment area with very little competition.

Brighton won't come up this season. They'll be lucky to scrape a playoff spot.

Derby could come back to have stab at Aston Villa's new record of brickness.
 
I believe they are not looking to sell and would continue to discourage approaches, as they have done already, unless circumstances change drastically for ENIC. You believe their end game is to sell, but they are not looking to sell (which seems remarkably like a contradiction to me). I don't believe they have an end game like that all, and they have provided no evidence of it, so far, unless you accept rumours from some of the self-proclaimed "ITK" mongers, as evidence. As an analogy, I have no intention of selling my house, and my end game is to die there, but if someone were to make me an offer that I felt at the time was too good to turn down, I'd sell, but I'm not about to waste my time investigating what I might get for the place, since it is irrelevant to my current intentions.
I believe that while there is the prospect of their ownership and expertise continuing to provide increasing returns in terms of wealth (though, I accept, not, currently, in terms of cash dividends), or at least as good or better than they can derive elsewhere, they will continue working towards that end.
That is the difference between us, as I see it.
Time will tell.

I think you yourself said they were an investment company. What do investment companies do? They invest for a return. At the moment, there is no return via dividend, so why is it contradictory to assume that they will sell? Your analogy of your house is silly because you're not holding it as an investment. If you invested in something it is for a return. And am I to assume that you think ENIC's end game is to never dispose of the investment? You think I am being contradictory, but I think you are deliberately being difficult. I have explained quite clearly why I don't think they are looking to sell now but that their end game is to sell. If you don't understand from what I have said, I don't know what to suggest to you except read it again.

If you think that they will settle for a return in the form of dividends, or income stream in the future then you must think they are stupid or some rich benefactors who are not in it for an investment. Why make a £50m investment 14 years ago in the hope of some income in how many years time? When they're an investment company. Better yet. I have an investment opportunity for you. Give me £47m and in 20 years time I'll give you an annuity income. Till you die in your house.
 
I think you yourself said they were an investment company. What do investment companies do? They invest for a return. At the moment, there is no return via dividend, so why is it contradictory to assume that they will sell? Your analogy of your house is silly because you're not holding it as an investment. If you invested in something it is for a return. And am I to assume that you think ENIC's end game is to never dispose of the investment? You think I am being contradictory, but I think you are deliberately being difficult. I have explained quite clearly why I don't think they are looking to sell now but that their end game is to sell. If you don't understand from what I have said, I don't know what to suggest to you except read it again.

If you think that they will settle for a return in the form of dividends, or income cat videos on youtube in the future then you must think they are stupid or some rich benefactors who are not in it for an investment. Why make a £50m investment 14 years ago in the hope of some income in how many years time? When they're an investment company. Better yet. I have an investment opportunity for you. Give me £47m and in 20 years time I'll give you an annuity income. Till you die in your house.

My house is an investment and a home. If I don't sell, then my heirs will reap the benefit. That should be blindingly obvious. Just because I have not created a company to hold the investment does not make it any less an investment, any more than my use of it does.

My view of ENIC's strategy is that they will hold the investment for as long as they can see and/or engineer better rewards by holding it than disposing of it. It is not in my view their end game necessarily to sell. In the current circumstances, with Tottenham Hotspur potentially on the verge of regular Champions League football, a new ground on the stocks, a new training ground already up and running, with residential facilities for the players shortly to be available, a successful youth strategy, more and more money coming from Sky and vast commercial potential throughout the world, I don't see them selling at what is likely to be a discounted price, simply because a lot of the future income and capital growth is uncertain. It is less uncertain to ENIC if they keep it because they have faith in their own abilities to reap the future benefits.

I think they will settle for an increasing capital value and future dividends precisely because they are not stupid and can see the potential future benefits, which their expertise and experience has made and will continue to make more likely. I think future dividends are highly likely by the way. You appear to think that the only possible return from an investment is income rather than capital growth. If this were the case then there would not be investment companies, merely development companies trading on their assets to final consumers.
If it is stupid for ENIC not to dispose of the investment, then it is stupid for any company to hold an investment long term without interim income, and it is stupid for anyone other than "some rich benefactors who are not in it for an investment" to buy it, unless to trade it on in the short term, and I can't imagine ENIC allowing them much leeway to do that.

Prudent investment companies hold investments until they have reached a position of diminishing returns from those particular investments. I do not see that happening any time soon with Tottenham Hotspur, (perhaps you do and perhaps other investors do. If so, then why would they invest other than at a discount?) and hopefully, with future success and development for the club and the continuing world-wide popularity of the game, that will not happen unless and until ENIC or Joe Lewis decide on a different strategy to the one they have employed over the last decade and a half (or Joe Lewis's death changes the parameters).
If you think I will give you £47 million then someone needs to wake you up. If you want me to lend you £47 million on the understanding that in 14 years time it is worth a billion when you repay me either in cash or assets, then you might have a chance, interim income or no interim income. That would have course need due diligence on my part, so don't hold your breath.
 
I know someone who is an expert on football financing (sports industry academic). He reckons anyone looking to make money out of the game at this point in time needs to buy Leeds or Wolves. I.e. teams at the bottom but with big potential to grow, rather than any club near the top.

I agree that teams currently outside the Premiership that could potentially filled a 50k plus stadium every home game look a reasonable investment, but anyone looking for a successful side should only be looking at a team in a large city with some cultural attractions as players and corporate sponsors want more than just a game. All provincial teams find it hard to hold on to top players.
 
I agree that teams currently outside the Premiership that could potentially filled a 50k plus stadium every home game look a reasonable investment, but anyone looking for a successful side should only be looking at a team in a large city with some cultural attractions as players and corporate sponsors want more than just a game. All provincial teams find it hard to hold on to top players.

I've always thought that Bristol City would be a good club to acquire - large city with no reasonably decent football team, nor one within close driving distance
 
I've always thought that Bristol City would be a good club to acquire - large city with no reasonably decent football team, nor one within close driving distance

They already have an owner who was trying to throw money at it this summer, but nobody wants to go there. He's put a lot of money into upgrading their stadium.
 
Good grief guys, this is all totally off topic. Take it the main forum.

Take it easy @hamer - the thread will get back on topic if there is some decent ITK to discuss and in the meantime, there are worse things to talk about.
 
My house is an investment and a home. If I don't sell, then my heirs will reap the benefit. That should be blindingly obvious. Just because I have not created a company to hold the investment does not make it any less an investment, any more than my use of it does.

My view of ENIC's strategy is that they will hold the investment for as long as they can see and/or engineer better rewards by holding it than disposing of it. It is not in my view their end game necessarily to sell. In the current circumstances, with Tottenham Hotspur potentially on the verge of regular Champions League football, a new ground on the stocks, a new training ground already up and running, with residential facilities for the players shortly to be available, a successful youth strategy, more and more money coming from Sky and vast commercial potential throughout the world, I don't see them selling at what is likely to be a discounted price, simply because a lot of the future income and capital growth is uncertain. It is less uncertain to ENIC if they keep it because they have faith in their own abilities to reap the future benefits.

I think they will settle for an increasing capital value and future dividends precisely because they are not stupid and can see the potential future benefits, which their expertise and experience has made and will continue to make more likely. I think future dividends are highly likely by the way. You appear to think that the only possible return from an investment is income rather than capital growth. If this were the case then there would not be investment companies, merely development companies trading on their assets to final consumers.
If it is stupid for ENIC not to dispose of the investment, then it is stupid for any company to hold an investment long term without interim income, and it is stupid for anyone other than "some rich benefactors who are not in it for an investment" to buy it, unless to trade it on in the short term, and I can't imagine ENIC allowing them much leeway to do that.

Prudent investment companies hold investments until they have reached a position of diminishing returns from those particular investments. I do not see that happening any time soon with Tottenham Hotspur, (perhaps you do and perhaps other investors do. If so, then why would they invest other than at a discount?) and hopefully, with future success and development for the club and the continuing world-wide popularity of the game, that will not happen unless and until ENIC or Joe Lewis decide on a different strategy to the one they have employed over the last decade and a half (or Joe Lewis's death changes the parameters).
If you think I will give you £47 million then someone needs to wake you up. If you want me to lend you £47 million on the understanding that in 14 years time it is worth a billion when you repay me either in cash or assets, then you might have a chance, interim income or no interim income. That would have course need due diligence on my part, so don't hold your breath.

I think that you and @Gazzasrightboot are arguing at cross purposes. Unless I have totally misunderstood GRB's argument, he is saying that it would take an offer that meets or exceeds ENIC's anticipated future earnings/profit from the club in order for them to sell. I agree.
 
So to sum it up Spurs have not been for sale since Levy has been here and despite what some fans have said about Levy being in it only for the money its false.

However IF someone offers a stupid amount of money they may consider it, seems that is no different to any other situation when someone has something they are happy with but some one comes along and offers far more then its worth.

So going back to what started this little debate it is true that Dragon was breathing fire out of his arse.
 
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