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Harry Winks

BrainOfLevy said:
Agreed. I think Southgate is absolutely perfect for the FA. An absolute diplomat, but actually a master in taking the pressure off of the players. It hasn't seeped through into performances yet, but there seems to be a clear strategy to manage expectations down as a crop of youngsters come through. He's a little bit too fond of a two-destroyer double-pivot for my liking but otherwise I'm quite a big fan.
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Ah, the important bit.
 
Gutter Boy said:
I think that might have just been needs must. Other than Winks, England doesn't really have another passing CM.

Also remember Hoddle's teams of 1997-8 were often based on an Ince-Batty pivot.
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True, but Ince started his career as a creative midfielder. I don't see a lot of creativity in the Dier-Henderson axis.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
Agreed. I think Southgate is absolutely perfect for the FA. An absolute diplomat, but actually a master in taking the pressure off of the players. It hasn't seeped through into performances yet, but there seems to be a clear strategy to manage expectations down as a crop of youngsters come through. He's a little bit too fond of a two-destroyer double-pivot for my liking but otherwise I'm quite a big fan.
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I like Southgate as a person, and for the soundbites in interviews etc he gives - he is articulte and likeable. However, I do have to question him as a coach when youre consistently playing two DMs against clearly inferior opposition. That being said, happy to give him time and its very much job done with only two draws in qualifying and the rest wins. But I do question whether hes going to be found out tactically....
 
harr1984 said:
I like Southgate as a person, and for the soundbites in interviews etc he gives - he is articulte and likeable. However, I do have to question him as a coach when youre consistently playing two DMs against clearly inferior opposition. That being said, happy to give him time and its very much job done with only two draws in qualifying and the rest wins. But I do question whether hes going to be found out tactically....
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Perhaps he wanted to take a good look at Winks and felt that the best way to do that would be to stick him into a double pivot rather than going for an attacking but unrealistic [in terms of using it at the WC] formation. Same for the other debutants / young players.

While I'm not exactly convinced by the England setup, perhaps this is a lesser version of what Germany did a few years back. Blood youngsters to give them as much prep as possible for future competitions. I can dream...
 
FatBloke said:
Perhaps he wanted to take a good look at Winks and felt that the best way to do that would be to stick him into a double pivot rather than going for an attacking but unrealistic [in terms of using it at the WC] formation. Same for the other debutants / young players.

While I'm not exactly convinced by the England setup, perhaps this is a lesser version of what Germany did a few years back. Blood youngsters to give them as much prep as possible for future competitions. I can dream...
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Hes done it consistently though, whether it be Dier,Livermore,Henderson etc. Its good to blood the younsters yes, but they need the freedom to play as they're allowed to for their clubs. I dont want to be too negative about Southgate as I do like him and hope to succeed. Im not too worried about the bigger teams, as we always raise our game and because such teams come onto us this allows us space to attack. But in the tournaments we will come up against teams like we do in the group stages who put nine/ten men behind the ball and will be much harder to break down and we need to work on being more fluid for these type of scenarios....
 
harr1984 said:
Hes done it consistently though, whether it be Dier,Livermore,Henderson etc. Its good to blood the younsters yes, but they need the freedom to play as they're allowed to for their clubs. I dont want to be too negative about Southgate as I do like him and hope to succeed. Im not too worried about the bigger teams, as we always raise our game and because such teams come onto us this allows us space to attack. But in the tournaments we will come up against teams like we do in the group stages who put nine/ten men behind the ball and will be much harder to break down and we need to work on being more fluid for these type of scenarios....
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That's what I mean. If that's the system England are going to play, there's no point changing it for a meaningless qualifier against lesser opposition. If you're going to play for the national team, you need to fit into the formation they play. Whether the formation should be tweaked for exceptional players (Scholes, for example) is a different matter.

Increased attacking fluidity against teams parking the bus is another matter too. You can do that by messing with your formation or by tweaking it with different players -- compare a Dier-Sissoko midfield with Wanyama-Dembele. Perhaps if it was a must-win match Southgate would have gone more attacking. I can see why he'd want to establish the style of play first before messing around. Changing formation is a damn sight trickier in real life than it is on Fantasy Football!

I say all that but I've not watched a full England match since the debacle against Iceland.
 
Don't forget the difference made by England using our training facilities - our guys on home turf and handy youngsters to co-opt for training drills/games.

Thank you David Levy
 
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Roland Beurre said:
True, but Ince started his career as a creative midfielder. I don't see a lot of creativity in the Dier-Henderson axis.
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Ince was an excellent all round player. I think his self proclaimed 'the guvnor' title probably led people to think he was just a destroyer, but he was much more than that. Yes he was physical and pretty tough in the tackle, but he was a good reader of the game, was reasonably two footed and could both spot and execute good passes. If Winks turns out anywhere near as good as Ince then he will turn into a brilliant player.
 
thfcsteff said:
Henderson is dire!
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Even so, being the Liverpool captain means he will be in the team regardless.

If he were to be played alongside Dier as a purely defensive element it could work. However, we all know he thinks he is Gerrard MKII and so of course that wont happen.

Personally I wouldnt even have him in the squad...
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Even so, being the Liverpool captain means he will be in the team regardless.

If he were to be played alongside Dier as a purely defensive element it could work. However, we all know he thinks he is Gerrard MKII and so of course that wont happen.

Personally I wouldnt even have him in the squad...
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if he was used as a purely defensive element alongside Dier then what would Dier's role be?
 
Gutter Boy said:
If Jordan Henderson is the answer, then the question is 'which partner for Jake Livermore would make the worst England central midfielder pairing since Carlton Palmer and Geoff Thomas in 1992'
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englands central midfield is in a shocking state. Tbh i dont rate any of them, including Dier.

Winks is not included as he has just come in. Hopefully he can fulfill his potential and even if he turns out to be Modric lite he will still be better than what we have right now.
 
Its not limiting at all.

It allows the fullbacks and the attacking players to really go for it.

Sterling, Alli, Kane, Lallana, for example, ahead of Dier/Henderson would have a great deal of space and freedom to play. Especially when its likely Rose and Walker will be the fullbacks offering width.

I should reiterate though, this is based upon the fact Henderson will be playing. As I said, I wouldnt have him even in the squad.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Its not limiting at all.

It allows the fullbacks and the attacking players to really go for it.

Sterling, Alli, Kane, Lallana, for example, ahead of Dier/Henderson would have a great deal of space and freedom to play. Especially when its likely Rose and Walker will be the fullbacks offering width.

I should reiterate though, this is based upon the fact Henderson will be playing. As I said, I wouldnt have him even in the squad.
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The Dier, Walker, Rose triangle was actually the only thing about England that looked any good at the Euros.

But we'd be much better having a ballplayer like Winks as the second CM, because without quick transitioning to the AMs, we'll be even more hopeless in the final third (aside from moments of individual brilliance from Kane or Alli)
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Its not limiting at all.

It allows the fullbacks and the attacking players to really go for it.

Sterling, Alli, Kane, Lallana, for example, ahead of Dier/Henderson would have a great deal of space and freedom to play. Especially when its likely Rose and Walker will be the fullbacks offering width.

I should reiterate though, this is based upon the fact Henderson will be playing. As I said, I wouldnt have him even in the squad.
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but the team would still lack a creative spark. We would have the same problem if Eriksen doesnt play.

i think long term Dele might be the one to drop back and play central midfield in a box to box role. He very rarely has a good game for England playing up close to Harry.
 
Its a very limited team in the first place, its England. And the entire premise there is based upon the fact Henderson will play. Id rather he didnt.

In that set up though both Alli and Lallana would have to make a third man in midfield to link things up.
 
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