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Giovani Lo Celso

K.D.D.D.D.Soc said:
Would you be happy for the rest of the squad to have his record of injury? Been with us 3 years and made no impact. It's like he's an addict and all his love ones make excuses for him in the hope he'll kick the habit. If everyone's happy for him to stay picking up big money in the hope he'll have a couple of good games it appears they have limited ambitions for the club.
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You've got your mind set on believing that he is always injured and ignore the injury numbers that I have posted. Can't really have a conversation with someone who wants to ignore facts.
 
alekaras said:
25 of these were from a long 23-game spell when he joined us and another 2 from Covid. He also did his hammy this year, like pretty much everyone else in the squad, and missed another 5 games. So 30 of the 62 games he missed were from an injury that most players have suffered this year, Covid (which is hardly an injury), and one long spell out.

I'll ask you this: if a player is out for a year and misses 50 games and the next 3 years misses just 4-5 games a season, you could say he missed 30% of games across 4 seasons due to injury. But in the last 3 seasons (assuming a 50 game season) it would be around 9-10%. Which one is a more fair reflection of how injury prone a player is?
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I mean I don’t know why it’s even in dispute that he is injury prone. He can’t seem to manage more than 4-5 games without getting injured. He’s a good player but he’s upgradable.
 
Jurgen the German said:
I mean I don’t know why it’s even in dispute that he is injury prone. He can’t seem to manage more than 4-5 games without getting injured. He’s a good player but he’s upgradable.
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There appears to be a dispute because some people do not want to believe the actual data, but are stuck on what their perception is.
 
alekaras said:
There appears to be a dispute because some people do not want to believe the actual data, but are stuck on what their perception is.
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It is hard to believe your stats, he always seems to be injured. Perhaps there was a stint when he was on the bench and thus not getting injured, but seems he gets injured every few games when he plays?
 
alekaras said:
From an injury standpoint, I already explained that his injury record is not as bad as people think it is.

As far as his performances are concerned, other than in the first year and a half with Jose, he hasn't really gotten a run of games to show what he can do. And the run of games he did get was playing Jose style football. Then came Conte who didn't want creative players in his team. Only now is he getting a chance to play in a style that brings out the best in him.

People are giving him a bad rap, but fail to consider the circumstances. If he gets a good run of games in this system he can easily average a goal involvement every 2 games, which is a top stat for a #8. This is not a Ndombele situation, who is lazy and will be lazy no matter the system or manager. This is a player that was not suited to our playing style of the past 4 years, but is perfectly suited to our playing style now.
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He's missed 62 games since 19/20. You said that was averaging 6 games a season. Maybe his injury record is worse than you think it is.
 
Lilbaz said:
He's missed 62 games since 19/20. You said that was averaging 6 games a season. Maybe his injury record is worse than you think it is.
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I noticed you avoided commenting on his quality and suitability to the way we play now, because I am sure you can also see what he brings to the table. You decided to focus on the tired injury narrative, just to win the argument.

But you are losing this argument too, because the facts don't back you. Go back and read what I said. He averages a little over 6 missed games per season in the last 3 seasons. And the reason I picked the last 3 seasons is because it is more important what his fitness is recently than what it was 5 years ago. But since you mentioned he missed 62 games since he joined us, let's take a look at some other players during the same timeframe:

Ben Davies: 52 games missed
Madders: 49 games missed (including his time at Leicester)
Romero: 48 games missed (including his time in Italy)
Skipp: 52 games

No one has claimed that the above players have a terrible fitness record. But Gio averaging 2-3 more games out injured per season than the above is an injury magnet.

Give your heads a wobble.
 
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alekaras said:
I noticed you avoided commenting on his quality and suitability to the way we play now, because I am sure you can also see what he brings to the table. You decided to focus on the tired injury narrative, just to win the argument.

But you are losing this argument too, because the facts don't back you. Go back and read what I said. He averages a little over 6 missed games per season in the last 3 seasons. And the reason I picked the last 3 seasons is because it is more important what his fitness is recently than what it was 5 years ago. But since you mentioned he missed 62 games since he joined us, let's take a look at some other players during the same timeframe:

Ben Davies: 52 games missed
Madders: 49 games missed (including his time at Leicester)
Romero: 48 games missed (including his time in Italy)
Skipp: 52 games

No one has claimed that the above players have a terrible fitness record. But Gio averaging 2-3 more games out injured per season than the above is an injury magnet.

Give your heads a wobble.
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I said he was unreliable. I'd sell skipp and sess too (although skipps problem was down to a misdiagnosis). I've criticised romero for getting sent off. Madders is on another level to lo celso.

There are better players out there than lo celso that we can bring in. I want us to improve.

I'm not saying lo celso is a bad player. I've never said that about any of our players.
 
alekaras said:
I noticed you avoided commenting on his quality and suitability to the way we play now, because I am sure you can also see what he brings to the table. You decided to focus on the tired injury narrative, just to win the argument.

But you are losing this argument too, because the facts don't back you. Go back and read what I said. He averages a little over 6 missed games per season in the last 3 seasons. And the reason I picked the last 3 seasons is because it is more important what his fitness is recently than what it was 5 years ago. But since you mentioned he missed 62 games since he joined us, let's take a look at some other players during the same timeframe:

Ben Davies: 52 games missed
Madders: 49 games missed (including his time at Leicester)
Romero: 48 games missed (including his time in Italy)
Skipp: 52 games

No one has claimed that the above players have a terrible fitness record. But Gio averaging 2-3 more games out injured per season than the above is an injury magnet.

Give your heads a wobble.
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Hmm I have no dog in this fight but actually one of the concerns about Maddison before we signed him was his injury record and availability. That was definitely a discussion across the Spurs discourse.

If you look in the Romero thread on this very board you see people discussing his unavailability. Some were even suggesting we sell him due to him not being available for all games.

Skipp and Davies are squad players, their absences are going to be noticed less than a Lo Celso who at various points in his time here was an assumed 1st team starter except he could never really stay fit. In comparison Davies has had 2 longer spells out as opposed to GLC who has had multiple smaller injury spells. It does come across as if he's very injury prone as opposed to just suffering one big injury ala say Bentancur.
 
alekaras said:
I noticed you avoided commenting on his quality and suitability to the way we play now, because I am sure you can also see what he brings to the table. You decided to focus on the tired injury narrative, just to win the argument.

But you are losing this argument too, because the facts don't back you. Go back and read what I said. He averages a little over 6 missed games per season in the last 3 seasons. And the reason I picked the last 3 seasons is because it is more important what his fitness is recently than what it was 5 years ago. But since you mentioned he missed 62 games since he joined us, let's take a look at some other players during the same timeframe:

Ben Davies: 52 games missed
Madders: 49 games missed (including his time at Leicester)
Romero: 48 games missed (including his time in Italy)
Skipp: 52 games

No one has claimed that the above players have a terrible fitness record. But Gio averaging 2-3 more games out injured per season than the above is an injury magnet.

Give your heads a wobble.
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Are the Lo Celso figures including the 1.5 seasons he played at Villarreal on loan?
 
We’ve persisted enough with him. Been here nearly 5 years and we still can’t get a decent run of games out of him. Can’t say we haven’t tried. Time to move him on to another club.
 
Jurgen the German said:
We’ve persisted enough with him. Been here nearly 5 years and we still can’t get a decent run of games out of him. Can’t say we haven’t tried. Time to move him on to another club.
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Your wasting your time, the voice crying in the wilderness is the only one who can see the truth, the rest of us are wrong. If only football was played at walking pace, non contact and keepers couldn't use their hands he'd be up there with Messi.
 
Lilbaz said:
I said he was unreliable. I'd sell skipp and sess too (although skipps problem was down to a misdiagnosis). I've criticised romero for getting sent off. Madders is on another level to lo celso.

There are better players out there than lo celso that we can bring in. I want us to improve.

I'm not saying lo celso is a bad player. I've never said that about any of our players.
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Who is out there that is better and attainable and would be a Maddison replacement?
 
Jurgen the German said:
We’ve persisted enough with him. Been here nearly 5 years and we still can’t get a decent run of games out of him. Can’t say we haven’t tried. Time to move him on to another club.
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It would suit him too
He won’t sign a new contract
He needs to go back to Spain and enjoy his career
 
alekaras said:
Who is out there that is better and attainable and would be a Maddison replacement
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I like Lo Celso, I've consistently been one of the voices on this board backing him but he's hardly an option as a replacement when he was rarely fit during the spell Maddison was unavailable.
 
I don't think that backwards white cap with a felt tip black heart on it, is the right attire and would therefore sell him for £23 at the earliest opportunity. I'm sure someone will tell me it was designer and cost £1k, but it is an immediate sell for me. Much like Hojbjerg's hair, it is unacceptable.
 
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