Football and Homophobia

[Papercut]

I always understood it was only humans (& dolphins) who had sex for pleasure. The rest of the animal kingdom just do it because the urge takes them. My dog shags my leg and teddy bears, but its not because he wants to, its because its just the thing to do. Doesn't make him gay.

You have teddy bears ??

 

[Yermiyahu]

You have teddy bears ??

Ghey!

 

[Lost Mango]

I always understood it was only humans (& dolphins) who had sex for pleasure. The rest of the animal kingdom just do it because the urge takes them. My dog shags my leg and teddy bears, but its not because he wants to, its because its just the thing to do. Doesn't make him gay.

And bonobos (Pygmy chimps), and lions and elephants and numerous bird species. It isn't as unusual as people think and it certainly isn't abnormal except in a religiously limiting culture.

You not think your dog is getting pleasure from your corduroy trousers??

 

[Aksolotl]

I am not aware of any controversy between scientists, I think that it is widely accepted that same sex sexual activity is common among many species. I'd be fascinated in reading any credible research that contradicts this though.

Here is a link to an article that about a study into same sex behavour

http://www.livescience.com/3697-sex-behavior-animals.html

and his is a link to the abstract of the study that they are writing about

https://www.cell.com/trends/ecology-evolution/abstract/S0169-5347(09)00154-2

I mean - you can't just translate animal behaviour to human one. For example, cannibalism is perfectly normal in nature and occurs in many species.
So animal homosexuality is not an argument in our case.

 

[Aksolotl]

I think by abnormal he means 'not the norm', which to be fair is entirely true. The norm in human sexuality is 'heterosexuality', naturally.

yes

 

[Aksolotl]

I find it interesting that your family values help condemn innocent children to a life of poverty and suffering. Great values, no need for change.

just look from my point of view - you never let raise children in abnormal family. that's the value. problem between us is in definition of abnormality.

Tell me, please - is it true there is massive movement in western europe for incest? and do you know smth. about the law justifying sex with 12 year old? In Holland, I think. there is some hype in russian media about it.

 

[Aksolotl]

Am I mistaken in thinking that the laws of your country on some level ban/ make illegal homosexuality.... do you not think this is wrong considering gay people are born this way just like you were clearly born straight.... Or is it a choice in Russia?

1. would you not love your son regardless?

2. I figured as much, selective opinions... how is a ****o different to two women having sex in privacy? do you not see how everyone reacts to your posts... IT IS NOT ABNORMAL, it is perfectly natural and is just as natural for other species to be gay...

that question is absurd! I would raise my children how I have been raised, to be open minded of other people and accepting of people who are different!

Your like of compassion for other humans is shocking!

We have the law against gay proparanda amongst kids. but homosexuality is legal for decades.

yes, I would love my son anyway. As I've written above I have fella who is gay.

 

[thfcsteff]

Can't understand about what racism are you talking.
As for homophobia - Why can't a matter of tolerance be a part of culture context? Look at islamic countries, for example. it's a reality.
what a sense of superiority in your post. Please, more patience speaking with racist homophob from isolated former communist country.
It's really strange to read about isolation...man we got internet, western movies, books, shows - i like western rock music, monty python, ardbeg etc. my sister lives in London. Most of russian people consumes western products of art and entertaiment. But still no massive pro gay movement. Maybe there will be mindshift in future Russia, but maybe England will become islamic.

Again, it is not my concern whether you are homophobic or not...it becomes a concern when it is expressed. Now, in the midst of all this, what has become lost is whether you are simply not into a 'pro-gay' movement (which of course is absolutely fine) or whether you are homophobic (again, fine as long as you have the social skills to only express that to like-minded folks)...

My main concern with all of this is NOT to demonize peope for thinking what they think, but to consider when expressing that thought becomes socially inflammatory/insulting. Again, not believing in pro-gay movements is fine (I personally think the 'laces' campaign is bizarre and rather missplaced) but being homophobic (IMO) puts someone in a place where for the good of society they should tread carefully as expressing such opinions can cause harm.

Finally, when I speak of 'isolation' I am talking about up to the late '80s. You're hopefully a smart cat, you know that. And having been to Eastern Europe before the wall went down, I am sure I need not tell you about the isolation that many people lived in. For what it's worth, the whole 'bring down the wall' might have been noble in one sense, but to do so without a careful and structured plan of integration was always going to cause problems for everyone.

I hope my points are clearer and my anger lessened. Apologies for getting heated. Discussion is a great thing and I appreciate your engaging in it...best...

 

[thfcsteff]

just look from my point of view - you never let raise children in abnormal family. that's the value. problem between us is in definition of abnormality.

Tell me, please - is it true there is massive movement in western europe for incest? and do you know smth. about the law justifying sex with 12 year old? In Holland, I think. there is some hype in russian media about it.

I am unsure what this has to do with anything, other than it's a disgrace. What about the traffiking of Russian girls for sex, equally disgraceful. This morally bankrupt practice (traffiking) stretches beyond culture and into the disgrace that is greed...

 

[thfcsteff]

science is controversial about homosexuality in nature.

I GENUINELY find your grave concerns and opinions on homosexuality strange...why on earth do you care how someone enjoys their private life mate?

 

[Richie]

Isn't this like when Terry was the poster boy for 'kick racism out of football' before calling Ferdinand a n*gger.

Also how players made a big deal about the 'Respect the Ref' campaign or whatever it was and still hassle them after any decision.

Anything footballers or clubs do is purely a PR exercise, none of them really give a ****.

 

[Richie]

I bet the fuss when a player "comes out" (must be a better phrase than that?) will be far less than people expect, the gutter press will play on it but most fans couldn't give a monkeys I expect

There will be plenty of singing from the terraces, but I suspect it will all be as good natured as football chanting can get.

Kind of like singing about Rooney looking like Shrek, its not malicious. Similar to teams singing so called "anti-gay" songs at Brighton fans

 

[Aksolotl]

Again, it is not my concern whether you are homophobic or not...it becomes a concern when it is expressed. Now, in the midst of all this, what has become lost is whether you are simply not into a 'pro-gay' movement (which of course is absolutely fine) or whether you are homophobic (again, fine as long as you have the social skills to only express that to like-minded folks)...

My main concern with all of this is NOT to demonize peope for thinking what they think, but to consider when expressing that thought becomes socially inflammatory/insulting. Again, not believing in pro-gay movements is fine (I personally think the 'laces' campaign is bizarre and rather missplaced) but being homophobic (IMO) puts someone in a place where for the good of society they should tread carefully as expressing such opinions can cause harm.

Finally, when I speak of 'isolation' I am talking about up to the late '80s. You're hopefully a smart cat, you know that. And having been to Eastern Europe before the wall went down, I am sure I need not tell you about the isolation that many people lived in. For what it's worth, the whole 'bring down the wall' might have been noble in one sense, but to do so without a careful and structured plan of integration was always going to cause problems for everyone.

I hope my points are clearer and my anger lessened. Apologies for getting heated. Discussion is a great thing and I appreciate your engaging in it...best...

So is homophobic point of view prohibited in England? with the law or public opinion? I wonder why players in Englang are afraid openly to come up as gays in such unhomophobic society.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/elena-ulansky/russias-answer-to-gay-rig_b_3860979.html - please, take it into consideration

and what do you think about madonna and lady ga ga, who openly broke this law at their shows in Russia? have they the social skills to only express that to like-minded folks?

I got your point anyway, really thank you and some other posters for the discussion. Sorry for some words you considered as disgusting. We can have a kind of poll here - Who is the most likely gay in Spurs now?)) i vote for Kaboul. As my friend said - I think he is gay. But he is our gay.)

 

[milo]

just look from my point of view - you never let raise children in abnormal family. that's the value. problem between us is in definition of abnormality.

So what other genetically predetermined minorities do you consider to be abnormal? Left handed people? People born with visual or hearing impairments?

 

[milo]

Tell me, please - is it true there is massive movement in western europe for incest?

No there isn't

and do you know smth. about the law justifying sex with 12 year old? In Holland, I think. there is some hype in russian media about it.

I have never heard of that and I doubt that there is any truth in it.

I do not understand what either of these have to do with same sex relationships between consenting adults.

 

[the fox in the box]

So is homophobic point of view prohibited in England? with the law or public opinion? I wonder why players in Englang are afraid openly to come up as gays in such unhomophobic society.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/elena-ulansky/russias-answer-to-gay-rig_b_3860979.html - please, take it into consideration

and what do you think about madonna and lady ga ga, who openly broke this law at their shows in Russia? have they the social skills to only express that to like-minded folks?

I got your point anyway, really thank you and some other posters for the discussion. Sorry for some words you considered as disgusting. We can have a kind of poll here - Who is the most likely gay in Spurs now?)) i vote for Kaboul. As my friend said - I think he is gay. But he is our gay.)

This is the point... Gay, White, Muslim, Jew, whatever..... why does it matter what they do in their private lives if they put in a great performance for Spurs weeke in week out? IT DOES'NT!

This is the crux of the problem - there are too many people in this country with opinions like yours who care and would use it against them.... All it shows is the people giving such abuse to be narrow minded/ sheltered

Like I said in a previous post... these people are no better than the Chelsea and West Ham fans that give us abuse in the Yid debate

 

[the fox in the box]

We have the law against gay proparanda amongst kids. but homosexuality is legal for decades.
QUOTE]

this is discrimination whatever way you label it... Gay people have the right to live an open and free life just like we do... not be forced into hiding with disgusting laws such as this...

and the violence shown towards gay people protesting against this by mindless thugs that has been all over the british media is enough for me to say I will never visit your country....

I have two close friends who are gay, and without them I would not have met my Girlfriend... If we lived in Russia this would not have been possible...

You claim it is your culture... What's that... to hate not accept and beat gay people? No thanks I'm not buying it....

 

[braineclipse]

I mean - you can't just translate animal behaviour to human one. For example, cannibalism is perfectly normal in nature and occurs in many species.
So animal homosexuality is not an argument in our case.

This part of the discussion came about because of your use of the word "abnormal" without defining what you meant by it. And of course your (for now at least) unsupported statement about a scientific controversy on this issue.

yes

This was in answer to "I think by abnormal he means 'not the norm', which to be fair is entirely true. The norm in human sexuality is 'heterosexuality', naturally."

just look from my point of view - you never let raise children in abnormal family. that's the value. problem between us is in definition of abnormality.

Tell me, please - is it true there is massive movement in western europe for incest? and do you know smth. about the law justifying sex with 12 year old? In Holland, I think. there is some hype in russian media about it.

And once again you're blurring definitions. By the definition you answered "yes" to above how can you claim that you wouldn't let children be raised in an abnormal family? Parents that get children at 45 are "abnormal" by the definition you agreed to, they're 'not the norm'. But I'm sure you wouldn't say that they shouldn't be allowed to raise children.

Either you're using abnormal just as 'not the norm', in which case you can't use it as a reason why someone shouldn't be allowed to do something. Or you're using abnormal as a description of something immoral. Please specify when you say "abnormal", and if it's the latter of those you need a reasoning to support that it is in fact immoral, because being 'outside the norm' surely isn't that.

No there's not a massive movement for incest in Europe. What gave you that idea?

The closest thing I could find regarding Holland based on what you described was this:

http://www.newgon.com/wiki/Age_of_Consent

Much discussion has been devoted to the age of consent in the Netherlands. According to a law passed in 1989, even though the age of consent was set at 16, sex between an adult and a young person between 12 and 16 was not an offence if the young person consented to the contact. Prosecutions for coercive sex could be sought by the young person or his/her parents.

The law which stirred much discussion (see Schuijer 1991, 1993, 1995, Faust 1995) and praised as positive for adolescent sexuality (Levine 2002, 89) was later repealled in 2002 by a very rare unanimous vote in the Dutch parliament (Hekma 2004).

Is this what you're talking about? If so this doesn't seem to support the decay of society in parallel with acceptance of homosexuality, but rather quite the opposite imo.

 

[Aksolotl]

And once again you're blurring definitions. By the definition you answered "yes" to above how can you claim that you wouldn't let children be raised in an abnormal family? Parents that get children at 45 are "abnormal" by the definition you agreed to, they're 'not the norm'. But I'm sure you wouldn't say that they shouldn't be allowed to raise children.

Either you're using abnormal just as 'not the norm', in which case you can't use it as a reason why someone shouldn't be allowed to do something. Or you're using abnormal as a description of something immoral. Please specify when you say "abnormal", and if it's the latter of those you need a reasoning to support that it is in fact immoral, because being 'outside the norm' surely isn't that.

No there's not a massive movement for incest in Europe. What gave you that idea?

The closest thing I could find regarding Holland based on what you described was this:

http://www.newgon.com/wiki/Age_of_Consent



Is this what you're talking about? If so this doesn't seem to support the decay of society in parallel with acceptance of homosexuality, but rather quite the opposite imo.

You're right - I wasn't correct with definitions, it's all about immoral. Why is it immoral? cos it's a perversion like incest, pedophilia etc. and propaganda of perversion is immoral. I know well you don't count homosexuality as perversion, but that's how it is in Russia and not only in Russia.

As for my question about incest and pedophilia in Europe - I just need your view about it cos I don't believe official media in Russia. You know how it is - first gay marriage then incest and pedophilia - Europe is rotten to the core!!
After your posts and some investigation I've found -- it is a question of decriminalization of incest, not propaganda. In fact incest is legal in Russia and always was. In this case Russia is more liberal than Europe. As for pedophilia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vereniging_Martijn - "However this decision was overturned by a higher court." - that was a real shocker in Russia. It's really disgusting but to say frankly I don't think there is a tendency.

 

[Pandy]

To the posters backing homosexuality: Why should homosexuality be legal and incest illegal?

Not saying I disagree with homosexuality or agree with incest, but a lot of the arguments used here such as 'people should be able to do what they want with their private life' would hold up for incest. Saying homosexuality is genetically determined (I do not agree) can also be equated with saying 'love is blind, that's why I'm f*cking my sister'.

The only plausible reason for me is the detriment generations of consistent inbreeding might do to the gene pool, but that should not make the simple act of sex between siblings illegal, and anyway, arguably our liberal values afford people to cause much more harm to themselves and others through cigarettes and alcohol (including literal alterations in genes caused by cancer), than the slow process of an inbreeding family might.

Values are funny things. They are defended to the hills, people's opinions on them are immovable, and yet they are often illogically founded.