Financial Results

[Bedfordspurs]

I’d did the numbers before and out match day if one will increase to around £150m

That was based on average ticket price and some corporate plus £10 average spend

 

[billyiddo]

I’d did the numbers before and out match day if one will increase to around £150m

That was based on average ticket price and some corporate plus £10 average spend

Your previous post on it was what i had in mind - that's a difference of about 85m on what Swiss Ramble is predicting (65m)

 

[Bullet]

Yep, Swiss Ramble can't handle the truth. Next year Spurs are going to be like a hippo wading into a child's paddling pool and sitting directly on Wenger's face

 

[Raziel]

I think that's a direct extrapolation of seat numbers, without taking into account the extra corporate seating.

And that in itself makes the vast majority of what he says nonsense. The growth in income at new WHL was always going to be more tied to the additional corporate facilities vs. new seats. WHL lagged behind most other top clubs in corporate facilities and that's where the significant money is.

The scum's matchday revenue almost doubled when they made their move (years ago, and by a bigger number than the 20M he is quoting for us), I honestly think he (like everyone other than Levy) has no fudging clue.

The point of new WHL & Training ground is

- World Class facilities that raise profile of club (highly likely new WHL becomes a London "attraction", no surprise we are back in US the preseason before opening)
- Increase matchday revenue by significantly extended corporate facilities, plus additional 26K+ seats
- Non matchday revenue with NFL (I think people misunderstand the amount of money in American sports), non-sport items (e.g. concerts/etc.) and tours (walk the roof, etc.)

Again if there is one thing all Spurs fans should laugh at our rivals with, is any statements re money management & Daniel Levy. If someone actually thinks Levy is going to spend somewhere close to 800M for an additional 20-30M/yr in revenue, they are stupid.

 

[jts1882]

He's has always seemed very negative with regards to our potential. Could be because he's a gooner.

I think he keeps it pretty neutral as a gooner. I noticed three slight digs but the numbers seem fair.

Maybe, makes me question how clued up he actually is though and the validity of what else he sayd tbh as that's a pretty big difference between what we should be expecting

He is an accountant and analyzing the published accounts. His analysis of current compared to previous years seem sound, but his predictions are more incomplete. He probably isn't following our stadium as closely as us. Also, his £20m might just be referring to the gate money the way Spurs report it, which doesn't include the corporates.

 

[Raziel]

I have got the feeling that each time round he thinks Levy is at or near the end of a good/lucky patch and that our time of punching above our weight will soon be over.
And yet Levy keeps pulling the rabbits out of the hat.
It could also be because innovation and hard work are intangibles that can't be really predicted or reflected in analysis of the financial results to extrapolate future potential.

This is common with people who don't follow Spurs closely

- The growth of this club in every way possible over the last 10-12 years is remarkable
- Results have steadily grown, quality of team has steadily grown, income has steadily grown.
- Investments in Infrastructure have been well thought out
- PR and global brand of club has grown

The issue is, it has been mostly slow, steady, organic growth vs. the only comparison people have of a club making itself relevant to top of PL (City, Chelsea) which came "overnight" from massive cash injection. Our way is less flashy, but more sustainable.

What people don't understand is if Levy left in 2 years, Spur's future is secured already, vs. if City/Chelsea's owners left tomorrow, they couldn't sustain their level.

 

[Raziel]

I think he keeps it pretty neutral as a gooner. I noticed three slight digs but the numbers seem fair.

He is an accountant and analyzing the published accounts. His analysis of current compared to previous years seem sound, but his predictions are more incomplete. He probably isn't following our stadium as closely as us. Also, his £20m might just be referring to the gate money the way Spurs report it, which doesn't include the corporates.

If you do that, you have to state it. Kind of telling not to use the most obvious comparison numbers which would have been the Scum's move, which if I recall correctly (mentioned above), their matchday income increased by over 45M.

None of us know, but I'd be amazed if our revenue increase isn't beyond anyone's predictions (it's fudging Levy)

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Your previous post on it was what i had in mind - that's a difference of about 85m on what Swiss Ramble is predicting (65m)

I’m sure I worked on an average of £70 (£1000 season ticket) and only group stages in champions league

 

[jts1882]

Bolded part is the key - better managment than our rivals has seen us outperform everyone in the league i believe these past 3 seasons (accumulative points total) despite having a much lower revenue, if revenue increases and we continue to perform to the same level (in relation) or even improve on our own standards then we'll be in fantastic shape and the pots should roll in

Not quite. My calculations have City 5 points ahead:


_______________GP W D L GF GA GD Pts
Emirates Marketing Project 108 69 21 18 241 104 137 228
Tottenham 108 65 28 15 219 88 131 223
Manchester Utd 108 59 29 20 166 89 77 206
Liverpool 109 57 32 20 216 127 89 203
Arsenal 108 59 23 26 203 123 80 200
Chelsea 108 59 23 26 198 117 81 200
Leicester City 108 46 30 32 164 144 20 168
Everton 109 39 32 38 159 152 7 149
West Ham Utd 108 36 33 39 152 173 -21 141
Southampton 108 35 32 41 131 139 -8 137
Bournemouth 109 32 30 47 141 187 -46 126
Stoke City 109 31 29 49 112 174 -62 122
Watford 109 33 23 53 122 177 -55 122
Swansea City 108 32 24 52 113 167 -54 120
Crystal Palace 109 30 24 55 122 166 -44 114
West Bromwich 109 25 34 50 103 151 -48 109

Over four seasons we are still second (on GD over Chelsea):


GP W D L GF GA GD Pts
Emirates Marketing Project 146 93 28 25 324 142 182 307
Tottenham 146 84 35 27 277 141 136 287
Chelsea 146 85 32 29 271 149 122 287
Manchester Utd 146 79 39 28 228 126 102 276
Arsenal 146 81 32 33 274 159 115 275
Liverpool 147 75 40 32 268 175 93 265
Leicester City 146 57 38 51 210 199 11 209
Southampton 146 53 38 55 185 172 13 197
Everton 147 51 43 53 207 202 5 196
Stoke City 147 46 38 63 160 219 -59 176
Swansea City 146 48 32 66 159 216 -57 176
Crystal Palace 147 43 33 71 169 217 -48 162
West Bromwich 147 36 45 66 141 202 -61 153

 

[Spur of the moment]

Not quite. My calculations have City 5 points ahead:


_______________GP W D L GF GA GD Pts
Emirates Marketing Project 108 69 21 18 241 104 137 228
Tottenham 108 65 28 15 219 88 131 223
Manchester Utd 108 59 29 20 166 89 77 206
Liverpool 109 57 32 20 216 127 89 203
Arsenal 108 59 23 26 203 123 80 200
Chelsea 108 59 23 26 198 117 81 200
Leicester City 108 46 30 32 164 144 20 168
Everton 109 39 32 38 159 152 7 149
West Ham Utd 108 36 33 39 152 173 -21 141
Southampton 108 35 32 41 131 139 -8 137
Bournemouth 109 32 30 47 141 187 -46 126
Stoke City 109 31 29 49 112 174 -62 122
Watford 109 33 23 53 122 177 -55 122
Swansea City 108 32 24 52 113 167 -54 120
Crystal Palace 109 30 24 55 122 166 -44 114
West Bromwich 109 25 34 50 103 151 -48 109

Over four seasons we are still second (on GD over Chelsea):


GP W D L GF GA GD Pts
Emirates Marketing Project 146 93 28 25 324 142 182 307
Tottenham 146 84 35 27 277 141 136 287
Chelsea 146 85 32 29 271 149 122 287
Manchester Utd 146 79 39 28 228 126 102 276
Arsenal 146 81 32 33 274 159 115 275
Liverpool 147 75 40 32 268 175 93 265
Leicester City 146 57 38 51 210 199 11 209
Southampton 146 53 38 55 185 172 13 197
Everton 147 51 43 53 207 202 5 196
Stoke City 147 46 38 63 160 219 -59 176
Swansea City 146 48 32 66 159 216 -57 176
Crystal Palace 147 43 33 71 169 217 -48 162
West Bromwich 147 36 45 66 141 202 -61 153

Irks that Chelsea have two League titles and Leicester one despite considerably inferior stats over the whole period.

But of course, they have a winning mentality, we apparently don't.

 

[Finney Is Back]

And that in itself makes the vast majority of what he says nonsense. The growth in income at new WHL was always going to be more tied to the additional corporate facilities vs. new seats. WHL lagged behind most other top clubs in corporate facilities and that's where the significant money is.

The scum's matchday revenue almost doubled when they made their move (years ago, and by a bigger number than the 20M he is quoting for us), I honestly think he (like everyone other than Levy) has no fudging clue.

The point of new WHL & Training ground is

- World Class facilities that raise profile of club (highly likely new WHL becomes a London "attraction", no surprise we are back in US the preseason before opening)
- Increase matchday revenue by significantly extended corporate facilities, plus additional 26K+ seats
- Non matchday revenue with NFL (I think people misunderstand the amount of money in American sports), non-sport items (e.g. concerts/etc.) and tours (walk the roof, etc.)

Again if there is one thing all Spurs fans should laugh at our rivals with, is any statements re money management & Daniel Levy. If someone actually thinks Levy is going to spend somewhere close to 800M for an additional 20-30M/yr in revenue, they are stupid.

indeed. An extra £20 million a year would barely cover the capital costs. I tried to work out likely revenue in the stadium thread and came up with the following:

West Stand Super Loges: About 170 seats at average of £10k = £1.7 million
East Stand Loges: About 200 seats at average of £8.5k = £1.7 million
Sky Lounge: 516 seats at £6k = £3.1 million
H Club: 180 seats at £15k = £2.7 million (plus a one off receipt of £2.7 million in joining fees)
Tunnel Club: 104 seats at £9.5k = £1 million (plus a one off receipt of £1.5 million in joining fees)
West Stand Tier 1 Premium Seats: 630 seats at £4.5k average: = £2.8 million
West Stand Tier 2 Premium Seats: 1,300 seats at £4.5k = £5.9 million
East Stand Tier 1 Premium Seats: 720 seats at £4.5k = £3.2 million
East Stand Tier 2 Premium Seats: 660 seats at £4.5k = £3 million
East Stand Tier 3 Premium Seats: 1,350 seats at 4.5k = £6 million
East Stand Tier 4 Sideline suites: 650 seats at £10k each = £6.5 million
West Stand Tier 2 Sideline suites: 650 seats at £10k each = £6.5 million

Total: £44 million from around 7,150 seats.

Obviously this is 850 seats short. So assuming an average price of: £5,000 for those that I have missed that is another: £4.2 million

The stadium could therefore bring in £48 million a year of corporate revenue

Now adding the non corporate revenue for league games
+ £2 million from 3,000 away seats
+ £42 million from 42,000 ST holders (paying average of £1,000)
+ £7.5 million from 8,000 match day tickets (paying average of £50)
Total: £51.5 million

Assuming we are in the champions League next year then the minimum participation of group stage only: 50,000 tickets sold at average of £50 for min of 3 games = £7.5 million

Domestic Cup revenue: Assume only two home games, with 30,000 tickets sold at an average of £20 = £1.2 million

Assume a reasonable naming rights deal of: £10 million

Total revenue: £114 million

That is before any money from the NFL for renting the stadium or any rent from additional events such as music concerts. The number also doesn't include any match day spend on food and drink.

I find it very strange that the rambler predicts us to have match day revenue around 35 million lower than the Woolwich Wanderers.... Despite the fact that our capacity is 2,000 higher, our prices are higher (especially considering they get up to 7 free Cup games) our corporate prices are higher and it is likely that we will be in the CL while they will be in the Europa (unless they go all the way and win it). The Arsenal fan in him is definitely coming out with that prediction.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

indeed. An extra £20 million a year would barely cover the capital costs. I tried to work out likely revenue in the stadium thread and came up with the following:

West Stand Super Loges: About 170 seats at average of £10k = £1.7 million
East Stand Loges: About 200 seats at average of £8.5k = £1.7 million
Sky Lounge: 516 seats at £6k = £3.1 million
H Club: 180 seats at £15k = £2.7 million (plus a one off receipt of £2.7 million in joining fees)
Tunnel Club: 104 seats at £9.5k = £1 million (plus a one off receipt of £1.5 million in joining fees)
West Stand Tier 1 Premium Seats: 630 seats at £4.5k average: = £2.8 million
West Stand Tier 2 Premium Seats: 1,300 seats at £4.5k = £5.9 million
East Stand Tier 1 Premium Seats: 720 seats at £4.5k = £3.2 million
East Stand Tier 2 Premium Seats: 660 seats at £4.5k = £3 million
East Stand Tier 3 Premium Seats: 1,350 seats at 4.5k = £6 million
East Stand Tier 4 Sideline suites: 650 seats at £10k each = £6.5 million
West Stand Tier 2 Sideline suites: 650 seats at £10k each = £6.5 million

Total: £44 million from around 7,150 seats.

Obviously this is 850 seats short. So assuming an average price of: £5,000 for those that I have missed that is another: £4.2 million

The stadium could therefore bring in £48 million a year of corporate revenue

Now adding the non corporate revenue for league games
+ £2 million from 3,000 away seats
+ £42 million from 42,000 ST holders (paying average of £1,000)
+ £7.5 million from 8,000 match day tickets (paying average of £50)
Total: £51.5 million

Assuming we are in the champions League next year then the minimum participation of group stage only: 50,000 tickets sold at average of £50 for min of 3 games = £7.5 million

Domestic Cup revenue: Assume only two home games, with 30,000 tickets sold at an average of £20 = £1.2 million

Assume a reasonable naming rights deal of: £10 million

Total revenue: £114 million

That is before any money from the NFL for renting the stadium or any rent from additional events such as music concerts. The number also doesn't include any match day spend on food and drink.

I find it very strange that the rambler predicts us to have match day revenue around 35 million lower than the Woolwich Wanderers.... Despite the fact that our capacity is 2,000 higher, our prices are higher (especially considering they get up to 7 free Cup games) our corporate prices are higher and it is likely that we will be in the CL while they will be in the Europa (unless they go all the way and win it). The Arsenal fan in him is definitely coming out with that prediction.

Your too low on the £50 average mate

Pour average price using the £1000 tickets would be just over that but I’m sure I worked out it to be an average season ticket cost of around £1400 so £70 ticket average

But either way the new numbers are way over the £100m mark and Swiss ramble is significantly out on that

 

[Finney Is Back]

I think he keeps it pretty neutral as a gooner. I noticed three slight digs but the numbers seem fair.

He is an accountant and analyzing the published accounts. His analysis of current compared to previous years seem sound, but his predictions are more incomplete. He probably isn't following our stadium as closely as us. Also, his £20m might just be referring to the gate money the way Spurs report it, which doesn't include the corporates.

That is possible I suppose. If so though I do not see how Arsenal can pull in £100 million of match day revenue currently? Unless Arsenal and Spurs allocate their corporate revenue differently in their accounts with them including it in match day and us as commercial revenue?.... If this is the case then our match day numbers will remain behind Arsenals but our commercial numbers will surge ahead of theirs.

I expect the overall increase in THFC revenue directly attributed to the stadium to be around £80 million. Clearly that pulls us much closer to Arsenal. Our sponsorship deals have also been growing at a faster rate than theirs over the past few years. If the trend continues then we will surpass them in a few years time. Gone are the days when Arsenal could comfortably operate a wage bill twice as big as ours. Those wage bills will instead converge over the next 3 or 4 years.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Your too low on the £50 average mate

Pour average price using the £1000 tickets would be just over that but I’m sure I worked out it to be an average season ticket cost of around £1400 so £70 ticket average

But either way the new numbers are way over the £100m mark and Swiss ramble is significantly out on that

I was also trying to factor in concessions. We have quite a few junior and senior ST holders and fans.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I was also trying to factor in concessions. We have quite a few junior and senior ST holders and fans.

Yeah fair calls

 

[jts1882]

That is possible I suppose. If so though I do not see how Arsenal can pull in £100 million of match day revenue currently? Unless Arsenal and Spurs allocate their corporate revenue differently in their accounts with them including it in match day and us as commercial revenue?.... If this is the case then our match day numbers will remain behind Arsenals but our commercial numbers will surge ahead of theirs.

I expect the overall increase in THFC revenue directly attributed to the stadium to be around £80 million. Clearly that pulls us much closer to Arsenal. Our sponsorship deals have also been growing at a faster rate than theirs over the past few years. If the trend continues then we will surpass them in a few years time. Gone are the days when Arsenal could comfortably operate a wage bill twice as big as ours. Those wage bills will instead converge over the next 3 or 4 years.

The Spurs accounts don't seem to be done exactly in line with the Deloitte division. The main divisions match up, but corporate seems to be in the commercial category rather than matchday. There is a statement "Sponsorship and corporate hospitality revenue was £54.7m". That and merchandising (£14m) add up to the commercial total of £78.8m, which is close to the Deloitte commercial number. The club's match receipts are the same as the Deloitte matchday (£45.3m), but it appears to include something other than gate money. Adding the gate from PL (£19m) and European (£6.2m) plus the gate plus prize money from domestic cups (£5m) leaves a gap of £15m. This could be our corporate, but then the commercial numbers need another component of about the same size


Deloitte say that "Matchday revenue is largely derived from gate receipts (including ticket and corporate hospitality sales)". I'd always understood that Arsenal matchday includes corporate. But their figure of $100m is slightly over double our £45m for match receipts, which is not far off the relative stadium capacities that year (60k vs. 30k). I'm now confused, although given my knowledge of accounting I shouldn't be surprised.

P.S. I asked in another thread, but could your missing 850 corporate seats be the west stand third tier premium seating?

 

[parklane1]

Irks that Chelsea have two League titles and Leicester one despite considerably inferior stats over the whole period.

But of course, they have a winning mentality, we apparently don't.

What they have is the mentality of being winners, and as you say we do not ( yet) so you are right on both counts.

 

[Spur of the moment]

What they have is the mentality of being winners, and as you say we do not ( yet) so you are right on both counts.

Yes, but they have also been lucky. Both Chelsea and Leicester won the PL in seasons when they had no European distractions. Would you not agree that makes a difference?

Meanwhile those stats show that over the last three seasons we have won more games in the PL than either of them. For me that says we have at least as much of a winning mentality as them.

What is more we are still a team on the up. We will probably have to win one of the big prizes in spite of having to compete on several fronts but unlike some posters on here who seem to want to do us down I firmly believe we do have the quality and our performances over the past three seasons suggest indeed we have.

COYS !!!

 

[HonorOakHotspur]

Does anyone know if the NFL and other Event revenue streams will be ploughed back into the Football side of the business?

Forgot to add revenue from our training complex services (e.g. Brazil National Team for the upcoming WC)

 

[HonorOakHotspur]

Not quite. My calculations have City 5 points ahead:


_______________GP W D L GF GA GD Pts
Emirates Marketing Project 108 69 21 18 241 104 137 228
Tottenham 108 65 28 15 219 88 131 223
Manchester Utd 108 59 29 20 166 89 77 206
Liverpool 109 57 32 20 216 127 89 203
Arsenal 108 59 23 26 203 123 80 200
Chelsea 108 59 23 26 198 117 81 200
Leicester City 108 46 30 32 164 144 20 168
Everton 109 39 32 38 159 152 7 149
West Ham Utd 108 36 33 39 152 173 -21 141
Southampton 108 35 32 41 131 139 -8 137
Bournemouth 109 32 30 47 141 187 -46 126
Stoke City 109 31 29 49 112 174 -62 122
Watford 109 33 23 53 122 177 -55 122
Swansea City 108 32 24 52 113 167 -54 120
Crystal Palace 109 30 24 55 122 166 -44 114
West Bromwich 109 25 34 50 103 151 -48 109

Over four seasons we are still second (on GD over Chelsea):


GP W D L GF GA GD Pts
Emirates Marketing Project 146 93 28 25 324 142 182 307
Tottenham 146 84 35 27 277 141 136 287
Chelsea 146 85 32 29 271 149 122 287
Manchester Utd 146 79 39 28 228 126 102 276
Arsenal 146 81 32 33 274 159 115 275
Liverpool 147 75 40 32 268 175 93 265
Leicester City 146 57 38 51 210 199 11 209
Southampton 146 53 38 55 185 172 13 197
Everton 147 51 43 53 207 202 5 196
Stoke City 147 46 38 63 160 219 -59 176
Swansea City 146 48 32 66 159 216 -57 176
Crystal Palace 147 43 33 71 169 217 -48 162
West Bromwich 147 36 45 66 141 202 -61 153

I posted my opinion of Poch's progress in his dedicated thread covering this specific topic (wasn't sure where it should go). At that time everyone had played 27 matches but seeing this I decided to update my own tables. Jts1882 is spot on, (this table is up to date, prior to the Burnley vs. Chelscum match).

My calcs over the last 4 seasons are as follows:



Last 3 Seasons:



Last 2 Seasons:



Love to see Arsenal in free fall but love the fact that we are up there pushing them out even more