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Financial Fair Play

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

He put the money in as loans, though. I don't know if it was interest free. If he has cleared the debt that means £200 million, which must be considerably more than the club are worth.

Enic have also put money in in exchange for equity. However, I suspect there investment (ca £120m?) is a lot less than they could sell the club for. They should make a nice profit, whereas Al Fayad is unlikely to get his money back (unless Mike Ashley has a twin brother).
 
Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

Premier League clubs have voted to introduce spending controls including financial fair play and restrictions on salary increases, West Ham's co-owner David Gold has confirmed.

Full details of the agreement will be announced by the Premier League later on Thursday, but Gold said that the proposals for controls had received the backing of the majority of top-flight chairmen.

He said: "We have all voted and it was overwhelmingly supported, not by all the clubs – some are a little concerned – but the vast majority of the clubs voted in favour."


www.guardian.co.uk/football/2013/feb/07/premier-league-clubs-spending-controls
 
Re: O/T Financial Fair Play - Now Voted In By The Premier League

City fans evidently not too concerned about the new spending controls, judging by the mood on Bluemoon. They're generally of the opinion that it is the likes of Villa, Everton and Saudi Sportswashing Machine that will be screwed by these rules, not them.

"A campus and series of developments that are akin to printing money hand-over-fist. Soon, everyone will see and it will seriously blow minds, as well as any concerns over FFPR. I'm always bemused by people envisaging our owners are sat on their hands, waiting to be put back in their corner.Nobody puts City in the corner."

"Genuinely, I suspect Khaldoon was objecting to this for the good of the league and for the good of the wellbeing of the smaller clubs. I think we have shown consistently that we are a class act and will try to do "the right thing". I doubt for one moment Khaldoon and our board were remotely bothered by these rules, but other clubs should be very very afraid of the long term consequences."

"In broader terms whilst disappointed from a wider footballing perspective as it is a shame that no-one else can experience what we have, I'd much rather be on the inside of the tent tinkling out than be a supporter of Everton, Villa and Saudi Sportswashing Machine. The greatest tragedy for them is that they probably don't realise that their owners today signed a death warrant on their aspirations as supporters."
 
Re: O/T Financial Fair Play - Now Voted In By The Premier League

What I've heard is there will be a salary cap coming in. Each teams wage bill to be limited to its current amount plus a capped percentage increase.
So the likes of City and United will be allowed to have a larger wage bill than us.

Makes no sense to me tbh.
 
Re: O/T Financial Fair Play - Now Voted In By The Premier League

What I've heard is there will be a salary cap coming in. Each teams wage bill to be limited to its current amount plus a capped percentage increase.
So the likes of City and United will be allowed to have a larger wage bill than us.

Makes no sense to me tbh.

If I've read it correctly, there will also be an implementation of the 'break-even' rule being adopted by FFP, which means clubs that are currently hundreds of millions of pounds in the red (read; City) will need to break even before increasing their wage bill, at a risk of significant sanctions.

Sure, they can point to the 400 million Etihad deal and say 'look, we're in the black', but that deal stinks to high heaven, and UEFA's already making noises about it, so how well that will fly with the PL is still a matter of debate.

I must add, though, that the 'break-even' rule that the PL clubs have just agreed to will be significantly watered down from the UEFA version, allowing injections of owner equity to cover a lot of losses, so how well it will work will still be an issue to observe.
 
Re: O/T Financial Fair Play - Now Voted In By The Premier League

City fans evidently not too concerned about the new spending controls, judging by the mood on Bluemoon. They're generally of the opinion that it is the likes of Villa, Everton and Saudi Sportswashing Machine that will be screwed by these rules, not them.

"A campus and series of developments that are akin to printing money hand-over-fist. Soon, everyone will see and it will seriously blow minds, as well as any concerns over FFPR. I'm always bemused by people envisaging our owners are sat on their hands, waiting to be put back in their corner.Nobody puts City in the corner."

"Genuinely, I suspect Khaldoon was objecting to this for the good of the league and for the good of the wellbeing of the smaller clubs. I think we have shown consistently that we are a class act and will try to do "the right thing". I doubt for one moment Khaldoon and our board were remotely bothered by these rules, but other clubs should be very very afraid of the long term consequences."

"In broader terms whilst disappointed from a wider footballing perspective as it is a shame that no-one else can experience what we have, I'd much rather be on the inside of the tent tinkling out than be a supporter of Everton, Villa and Saudi Sportswashing Machine. The greatest tragedy for them is that they probably don't realise that their owners today signed a death warrant on their aspirations as supporters."

It's not quite as dramatic as that but, in broad terms, I pretty much agree with what that Bluemoon poster wrote.
 
Re: O/T Financial Fair Play - Now Voted In By The Premier League

If I've read it correctly, there will also be an implementation of the 'break-even' rule being adopted by FFP, which means clubs that are currently hundreds of millions of pounds in the red (read; City) will need to break even before increasing their wage bill, at a risk of significant sanctions.

Sure, they can point to the 400 million Etihad deal and say 'look, we're in the black', but that deal stinks to high heaven, and UEFA's already making noises about it, so how well that will fly with the PL is still a matter of debate.

I must add, though, that the 'break-even' rule that the PL clubs have just agreed to will be significantly watered down from the UEFA version, allowing injections of owner equity to cover a lot of losses, so how well it will work will still be an issue to observe.

I doubt that UEFA will be able to prove that there's much wrong with the Etihad deal. And I doubt that they will be able to prevent City from earning huge amounts from their redevelopment of a large swathe of east Manchester either.
 
Re: O/T Financial Fair Play - Now Voted In By The Premier League

Bullet - great post on previous page mate. =D> Point well made!
 
Re: O/T Financial Fair Play - Now Voted In By The Premier League

Wages to turnover ratio limit.

Number of years to comply.

Job done.
 
Re: O/T Financial Fair Play - Now Voted In By The Premier League

It's not quite as dramatic as that but, in broad terms, I pretty much agree with what that Bluemoon poster wrote.

I tend to look at these things from a very Tottenham-centric perspective. I recognize the arguments about this kind of regulation stifling investment, and preventing smaller clubs having a shot at the top, and cede that they're quite valid.

However, not enough thought is given to clubs like us; clubs that have tried to live within their means, and been effectively punished for it by having a super-injected petro-club blast past them without a second glance towards such things as 'financial stability' and 'prudence', among others. Everton, Arsenal, us. In our case, we've been fudged over not once, but twice, by this happening. With Chelsea in 2001 and City in 2008. We could, and arguably should, have been where Chelsea are now, had that investment not blown us out of the water. To compete with these super-charged clubs, we're having to painstakingly build a 56,000 seater stadium that is siphoning away a disproportionate amount of our finances and leaving us to hunt for bargains like Dempsey and Holtby.

all the good decisions Levy's made, all the wise strategies and careful investment, have only served to keep us on the fringes of the elite. Why is that the case? Well, in United and Arsenal's case, their commercial and matchday revenue dwarfs ours, but those are things that can be remedied by careful management and considered investment, two things we're very good at. But knowing that there is no way on Earth we can compete with the Sheikh and the oligarch,that every move we make, they can make with a tenth of the effort, thought and concern, that every good decision we have ever made can't compete with their endless petro-dollars.....that is more depressing than any thought of United or Arsenal using their earned revenues to generate success.

The Sheikh and Abramovich can fund new stadiums almost without thought. We have taken ten years to get around to even the preliminary work. The Sheikh and Abramovich can spend 30 million on transfer fees and 25 million on wages for just one player without blinking. We negotiated for weeks just to get Holtby in for 1.5 million quid, and refused to spend anything on just one striker on deadline day.

That is galling. So much more so than this scare-mongering about a La-Liga situation or United becoming Bayern. Clubs shouldn't have to dream of shady oil money, shouldn't have to rely on gargantuan investments by foreign owners to guarantee success, shouldn't effectively say 'fudge the rest of you' and spend their way to the very top.

Clubs should play by the same fudging rules. And if that means a duopoly at the very top, so be it, it'll make things more interesting below that and might bring some sanity back into a game that sorely needs it.

This isn't about City or Chelsea. Those two clubs have already established themselves at the top, for better or worse. For all my optimism, the Etihad deal probably has enough legal weight behind it to stand it court, if it comes to that. And the investments the Sheikh is making will pretty much guarantee City's revenues, for the medium term at least. So it's not about them. It's about giving prudent management a chance to gain success, and to prevent any more massive splurges that blast spending teams into contention and drop conservative clubs into oblivion.

Perhaps that's being naive, or perhaps the Liverpools, Uniteds and Arsenals of this world will then rule in perpetuity. But again, would fans rather see their team compete within their limits (but stand an even chance compared to the teams other than the ones above), or hope for an oligarch or Shiekh, but accept the inherent risk of another club winning the lottery and zooming cheerily into the distance while they wave their increasingly pathetic little flag, hoping for an angel investor to come save them?
 
Re: O/T Financial Fair Play - Now Voted In By The Premier League

I tend to look at these things from a very Tottenham-centric perspective. I recognize the arguments about this kind of regulation stifling investment, and preventing smaller clubs having a shot at the top, and cede that they're quite valid.

However, not enough thought is given to clubs like us; clubs that have tried to live within their means, and been effectively punished for it by having a super-injected petro-club blast past them without a second glance towards such things as 'financial stability' and 'prudence', among others. Everton, Arsenal, us. In our case, we've been fudged over not once, but twice, by this happening. With Chelsea in 2001 and City in 2008. We could, and arguably should, have been where Chelsea are now, had that investment not blown us out of the water. To compete with these super-charged clubs, we're having to painstakingly build a 56,000 seater stadium that is siphoning away a disproportionate amount of our finances and leaving us to hunt for bargains like Dempsey and Holtby.

all the good decisions Levy's made, all the wise strategies and careful investment, have only served to keep us on the fringes of the elite. Why is that the case? Well, in United and Arsenal's case, their commercial and matchday revenue dwarfs ours, but those are things that can be remedied by careful management and considered investment, two things we're very good at. But knowing that there is no way on Earth we can compete with the Sheikh and the oligarch,that every move we make, they can make with a tenth of the effort, thought and concern, that every good decision we have ever made can't compete with their endless petro-dollars.....that is more depressing than any thought of United or Arsenal using their earned revenues to generate success.

The Sheikh and Abramovich can fund new stadiums almost without thought. We have taken ten years to get around to even the preliminary work. The Sheikh and Abramovich can spend 30 million on transfer fees and 25 million on wages for just one player without blinking. We negotiated for weeks just to get Holtby in for 1.5 million quid, and refused to spend anything on just one striker on deadline day.

That is galling. So much more so than this scare-mongering about a La-Liga situation or United becoming Bayern. Clubs shouldn't have to dream of shady oil money, shouldn't have to rely on gargantuan investments by foreign owners to guarantee success, shouldn't effectively say 'fudge the rest of you' and spend their way to the very top.

Clubs should play by the same fudging rules. And if that means a duopoly at the very top, so be it, it'll make things more interesting below that and might bring some sanity back into a game that sorely needs it.

This isn't about City or Chelsea. Those two clubs have already established themselves at the top, for better or worse. For all my optimism, the Etihad deal probably has enough legal weight behind it to stand it court, if it comes to that. And the investments the Sheikh is making will pretty much guarantee City's revenues, for the medium term at least. So it's not about them. It's about giving prudent management a chance to gain success, and to prevent any more massive splurges that blast spending teams into contention and drop conservative clubs into oblivion.

Perhaps that's being naive, or perhaps the Liverpools, Uniteds and Arsenals of this world will then rule in perpetuity. But again, would fans rather see their team compete within their limits (but stand an even chance compared to the teams other than the ones above), or hope for an oligarch or Shiekh, but accept the inherent risk of another club winning the lottery and zooming cheerily into the distance while they wave their increasingly pathetic little flag, hoping for an angel investor to come save them?

Capitalism. Deal with it.
 
Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

He put the money in as loans, though. I don't know if it was interest free. If he has cleared the debt that means £200 million, which must be considerably more than the club are worth.

Enic have also put money in in exchange for equity. However, I suspect there investment (ca £120m?) is a lot less than they could sell the club for. They should make a nice profit, whereas Al Fayad is unlikely to get his money back (unless Mike Ashley has a twin brother).

Most of that £120m from ENIC was to buy the club, AFAIK.

My reading of the situation is that Al Fayed and the QPR owners have both pumped more money into their clubs than ENIC have.

For sure Chelsea and City have, hence they have overtaken us, whereas once we were a bigger and more scuccessful club than both of them.

If we allow that ENIC have pumped say £40m in on top of the £80m purchase in return for mre equity, as you say that's nowhere near what the club is worth.

Now some credit for the increase in the club's value has to go to ENIC so fair play to them if they sell up and make a profit. Of course if they want to triple their money or more that could impact on who would buy us, and how much they'd then spend on us.

In the end though it's very difficult about talking about finances when we don't have the facts as fans.

What I do know is we've had the worst trophy haul under ENIC for over 60 years. Further, that some extra investment from them might have reversed that por showing. It might not have as well, of course.
 
Re: O/T Financial Fair Play - Now Voted In By The Premier League

Capitalism. Deal with it.

In sport. Capitalism in sport. Isn't sport something we used to do or watch when we wanted to get away from capitalism?

And if it really is true capitalism, I suggest you, and everyone else on this forum, buy a United, Madrid, Barca or Bayern jersey, and get to learning the words to 'Glory Glory Man United', because they are indubitably much, much more successful than us and thus deserve our patronage far more than relatively uncompetitive Tottenham do. Same thing applies (perhaps even more so) to the fans of clubs like Notts County, Wrexham and Dagenham and Redbridge; let them all go buy the 'product' offered by United.

Sports cannot be measured in purely capitalist terms, because it is neither rational, logical or possessed of the profit motive.
 
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In sport. Capitalism in sport. Isn't sport something we used to do or watch when we wanted to get away from capitalism?

And if it really is true capitalism, I suggest you, and everyone else on this forum, buy a United, Madrid, Barca or Bayern jersey, and get to learning the words to 'Glory Glory Man United', because they are indubitably much, much more successful than us and thus deserve our patronage far more than relatively uncompetitive Tottenham do. Same thing applies (perhaps even more so) to the fans of clubs like Notts County, Wrexham and Dagenham and Redbridge; let them all go buy the 'product' offered by United.

Sports cannot be measured in purely capitalist terms, because it is neither rational, logical or possessed of the profit motive.

BOOM!
 
Re: O/T Financial Fair Play - Now Voted In By The Premier League

In sport. Capitalism in sport. Isn't sport something we used to do or watch when we wanted to get away from capitalism?

And if it really is true capitalism, I suggest you, and everyone else on this forum, buy a United, Madrid, Barca or Bayern jersey, and get to learning the words to 'Glory Glory Man United', because they are indubitably much, much more successful than us and thus deserve our patronage far more than relatively uncompetitive Tottenham do. Same thing applies (perhaps even more so) to the fans of clubs like Notts County, Wrexham and Dagenham and Redbridge; let them all go buy the 'product' offered by United.

Sports cannot be measured in purely capitalist terms, because it is neither rational, logical or possessed of the profit motive.

Funnily enough, the biggest free-marketers in the world - my very own U. S. of A. - seem to be much more socialist in ideals than other countries when it comes to sport. I don't doubt that our franchises are ridiculously packaged and consumerist and you have plenty of wealthy owners running around, but our obsession with fairness and giving the underdog a chance really comes through in sport.
 
Re: O/T Financial Fair Play - Now Voted In By The Premier League

Premier League clubs will face a points deduction if they breach new spending controls, chief executive Richard Scudamore has confirmed.

The 20 club chairmen agreed to two significant controls on Thursday - to limit players' wage bills from next season and to longer-term measures that will restrict the amount of losses clubs can make to £105million over three years.

Clubs whose total wage bill is more than £52m will only be allowed to increase their wages by £4m per season for the next three years, but the cap does not cover extra money coming in from increases in commercial or matchday income.

Scudamore said: "As all things in our rulebook you will subject to a disciplinary commission.

"The clubs understand that if people break the £105m we will look for the top-end ultimate sanction range - a points deduction.

"Normally we stay silent on sanctions as the commission has a free range but clearly if there is a material breach of that rule we will be asking the commission to consider top-end sanctions."

Scudamore said there would be an "absolute prohibition" on clubs reporting losses of more than £105m over the next three years with the first sanctions possible in 2016.

Of the 20 clubs in the top flight, only Emirates Marketing Project, Chelsea and Liverpool have reported losses of more than £105m over the last three years, according to the most up-to-date published accounts.

Scudamore said that the measures would mean it will take longer for benefactor owners to achieve success, but that it would still be possible.

He said: "The balance we have tried to strike is that a new owner can still invest a decent amount of money to improve their club but they are not going to be throwing hundreds and hundreds of millions in a very short period of time.

"While it has worked for a couple of clubs in the last 10 years, and I am not critical of that, if that's going to be done in the future it's going to have to be over a slightly longer term without the huge losses being made.

"I think at £105m you can still build a very decent club with substantial owner funding but you have to do it over time, you can't do it in a season."

Chelsea won the Premier League two years after Roman Abramovich's takeover, and Emirates Marketing Project's title success came three years after Sheikh Mansour's takeover.

Any club making any loss of over £5m a year will have guarantee those losses against the owner's assets.

"In some ways that's the most significant part; this is a three-year rolling system of secure funding - it's one year at the moment," added Scudamore.

The ceiling when the wage increase restrictions kick in will be £52m next season, £56m the following year and £60m in 2015-16. Only seven of the current top-flight clubs would be under that ceiling at the moment.


http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11670/8478278/Premier-League-clubs-facing-points-deduction-if-they-breach-new-spending-controls
 
Re: O/T Financial Fair Play - Now Voted In By The Premier League

the irony in a poster named DubaiSpur arguing against lavish spending :lol:

excellent posting from you on the subject =D>
 
Re: O/T Financial Fair Play - Now Voted In By The Premier League

Funnily enough, the biggest free-marketers in the world - my very own U. S. of A. - seem to be much more socialist in ideals than other countries when it comes to sport. I don't doubt that our franchises are ridiculously packaged and consumerist and you have plenty of wealthy owners running around, but our obsession with fairness and giving the underdog a chance really comes through in sport.

It's more a product than a sport over there though. Leagues are closed shops and they need to stay competitive to draw and maintain fans' interest. There have been several attempts to launch leagues to compete with the NFL for instance. Then you have two businesses competing for the same market. The way football is structured across the globe that's not a possibility. Instead it's the clubs that compete for market shares. To make it comparable you'd have to let every city in the US that wants to have their own team. Then there would be 100+ franchises competing against each other in a tiered league system.
 
Re: O/T Financial Fair Play - Now Voted In By The Premier League

the irony in a poster named DubaiSpur arguing against lavish spending :lol:

excellent posting from you on the subject =D>

Canada and their bloody socialists. Sapped the entrepreneurial spirit right outta me.

Appreciated. :)
 
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