Eric Dier

[ShipOfTheseus]

I don't think that Dier and Wanyama is the kind of midfield a progressive team should be playing. In fact, the whole reason the 2 in a 4-2-3-1 was developed was so that a team could play two players like Dier or Dembele and didn't need a Wanyama.

Using the choice of someone who picks Jordan Henderson for their midfield is fighting a losing battle from the start - you need to do better than that.

Dier seems to me to be scariest at the moment when he is unquestionably the sole defensive midfielder, because then his misplaced back passes go down the middle into space. At least when he's on the right, further forward, with a counterpart on the left, then Toby is usually behind him to mop up.

 

[the dza]

I don't think that Dier and Wanyama is the kind of midfield a progressive team should be playing. In fact, the whole reason the 2 in a 4-2-3-1 was developed was so that a team could play two players like Dier or Dembele and didn't need a Wanyama.

Using the choice of someone who picks Jordan Henderson for their midfield is fighting a losing battle from the start - you need to do better than that.

Why is Dier so untouchable in your eyes? There are people talking about sc@pegoats and some players do become them, but equally there seems to be some players you cannot criticise. I think Kane is an untouchable because he is on another level to our other players, I feel similarly about Eriksen.

If Aurier or Sissoko play badly, they get hammered. I get it, they have built up no credit in the bank. At the other end of the scale is Kane, who has so much credit in the bank that if he has a poor game, nobody will really go after him and rightly so.

But Dier is very much middle of the road (much more credit in the bank than Sissoko, nowhere near as much as Kane or Eriksen). As I have said twice (and you have ignored it both times) Poch is the one who started a different player in midfield in our best season (Wanyama) and Poch is the one who played Dier in a back 3 that same season, buying a £40m replacement the following summer. That's Poch, not me or Gareth Southgate.

 

[scaramanga]

Dier seems to me to be scariest at the moment when he is unquestionably the sole defensive midfielder, because then his misplaced back passes go down the middle into space. At least when he's on the right, further forward, with a counterpart on the left, then Toby is usually behind him to mop up.

Other than Wanyama I don't think we have any players suited to being a sole defensive midfielder. If Poch is going to insist on three at the back and a sole defensive midfielder then I suggest he gets a specialist for that role. At our best we've played with two deep-lying mmidfielders, neither of which have been dedicated defensive midfielders.

 

[scaramanga]

Why is Dier so untouchable in your eyes? There are people talking about sc@pegoats and some players do become them, but equally there seems to be some players you cannot criticise. I think Kane is an untouchable because he is on another level to our other players, I feel similarly about Eriksen.

If Aurier or Sissoko play badly, they get hammered. I get it, they have built up no credit in the bank. At the other end of the scale is Kane, who has so much credit in the bank that if he has a poor game, nobody will really go after him and rightly so.

But Dier is very much middle of the road (much more credit in the bank than Sissoko, nowhere near as much as Kane or Eriksen). As I have said twice (and you have ignored it both times) Poch is the one who started a different player in midfield in our best season (Wanyama) and Poch is the one who played Dier in a back 3 that same season, buying a £40m replacement the following summer. That's Poch, not me or Gareth Southgate.

Because Dier (much like Lamela) seems to split people along the thinky/not thinky, progressive/"football were much better in my day" lines.

 

[the dza]

Because Dier (much like Lamela) seems to split people along the thinky/not thinky, progressive/"football were much better in my day" lines.

So that's what it's really about. If it turns out that you are wrong about Dier then you're not as thinky as you like to think(y) you are...

Good job I guess that Wanyama and Toby got those bad injuries, otherwise Poch would belong in the "not thinky" group too. The 3rd post in a row you ignore that fact, by the way.

 

[scaramanga]

So that's what it's really about. If it turns out that you are wrong about Dier then you're not as thinky as you like to think(y) you are...

Good job I guess that Wanyama and Toby got those bad injuries, otherwise Poch would belong in the "not thinky" group too. The 3rd post in a row you ignore that fact, by the way.

Poch has already shown he has tendencies to not want to use logic in his thinking - even to have some fairly major flaws when he tries.

Take a look at his aura stuff, or comments on not making subs because it might hurt the little petals' feelings.

I wasn't ignoring the point, I just don't think it has any value.

 

[the dza]

Poch has already shown he has tendencies to not want to use logic in his thinking - even to have some fairly major flaws when he tries.

Take a look at his aura stuff, or comments on not making subs because it might hurt the little petals' feelings.

I wasn't ignoring the point, I just don't think it has any value.

If logic came into it, you'd acknowledge that we got our best points haul under Poch with a midfield 2 of Wanyama and Dembele infront of a back 3. Then you'd also have to acknowledge that Sanchez was bought the following summer to replace Dier in that back 3, but severe injuries to Toby and Wanyama put paid to that plan. Dier would have been a squad player but for that, and he has played accordingly ever since imo, with some very good games and some very poor ones, but mainly middle of the road. With Wanyama being poor since his return and nobody standing out in midfield, Dier is a starter and I don't disagree with that given our current options. Which is why I think those options will be improved upon in the summer transfer window, unless there is a dramatic turnaround in form for Dier and Wanyama.

 

[scaramanga]

If logic came into it, you'd acknowledge that we got our best points haul under Poch with a midfield 2 of Wanyama and Dembele infront of a back 3. Then you'd also have to acknowledge that Sanchez was bought the following summer to replace Dier in that back 3, but severe injuries to Toby and Wanyama put paid to that plan. Dier would have been a squad player but for that, and he has played accordingly ever since imo, with some very good games and some very poor ones, but mainly middle of the road. With Wanyama being poor since his return and nobody standing out in midfield, Dier is a starter and I don't disagree with that given our current options. Which is why I think those options will be improved upon in the summer transfer window, unless there is a dramatic turnaround in form for Dier and Wanyama.

That assumes that Dier wouldn't have replaced Wanyama in midfield and was in the back 3 by choice rather than necessity.

I don't think that's the case. Dier is a significantly better choice in midfield for a possession team and was playing in defence because we didn't have an alternative.

 

[the dza]

That assumes that Dier wouldn't have replaced Wanyama in midfield and was in the back 3 by choice rather than necessity.

I don't think that's the case. Dier is a significantly better choice in midfield for a possession team and was playing in defence because we didn't have an alternative.

On that point, we disagree. Before his injury, Wanyama was immense in midfield for us and played at a higher level than Dier has done for us imo. I think Wanyama and Dembele as a pair in that season was the most dominant Spurs midfield I have seen. Unfortunately, we don't know if that version of Wanyama will ever return. Add to that, Dembele has too many miles on the clock to play at a high level starting games all the time. It seems to be the area of the squad that is most in need of a new face. It could be that a new player in there would help Dier to raise his game and they become the dominant pairing in midfield, who knows?

Incidentally, at the back end of that season, I remember Wanyama and Dier playing as a pair in midfield and they were brilliant together, the team played great football when we beat Hull 7-1.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Off form Dier still makes interceptions passes and tackles.

He does indeed. The problem is that he also tends to create as many chances for the opposition as they create for themselves.

Dier when on form is a reasonable component in our team. Off form he is a bit of a liability.

IMO Dier is the weakest of our 'first team' players and the first one that we should be looking to upgrade. I think perhaps we have been a little unfortunate here as Pochettino probably purchased Wanyama as the Dier upgrade. Initially Wanyama showed that he was a good upgrade on Dier only for him to have become rather injury prone over the past year or so.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I don't think that Dier and Wanyama is the kind of midfield a progressive team should be playing. In fact, the whole reason the 2 in a 4-2-3-1 was developed was so that a team could play two players like Dier or Dembele and didn't need a Wanyama.

Using the choice of someone who picks Jordan Henderson for their midfield is fighting a losing battle from the start - you need to do better than that.

I mostly agree with you here. Except I would change it to:

"In fact, the whole reason the 2 in a 4-2-3-1 was developed was so that a team could play two players like Wayama or Dembele and didn't need a Dier"

 

[scaramanga]

I mostly agree with you here. Except I would change it to:

"In fact, the whole reason the 2 in a 4-2-3-1 was developed was so that a team could play two players like Wayama or Dembele and didn't need a Dier"

Wanyama is the kind of player 4-2-3-1 was invented to avoid. Top teams shouldn't limit their playmaking ability that much, so the idea of a double pivot, with both players being passers and both sharing what had been one player's defensive responsibility was developed.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Wanyama is the kind of player 4-2-3-1 was invented to avoid. Top teams shouldn't limit their playmaking ability that much, so the idea of a double pivot, with both players being passers and both sharing what had been one player's defensive responsibility was developed.

I see little difference between Dier and Wanyama in terms of ability in possession, I think Dier certainly has better vision for a pass than Wanyama, but counteracts the credit he builds up here by also gifting the opposition a chance in every single game with a ridiculous give away. Wanyama is the better of the two in terms of running with the ball. Out of possession I think that Wanyama is the better player. If both are fit and on form then Wanyama would always get my pick.

I actually feel a little sorry for Dier at the moment as it looks as though he isn't completely fit and I think this is affecting his performances. The problem is that Wanyama is also not fit, Winks is nowhere near back to his best and Dembele's schedule has to be managed carefully. I think Poch is being forced to pick Dier by default at the moment and it is making Dier look worse than he actually is.

 

[billyiddo]

A few posters backed themselves in to a corner talking up Dier whilst talking a swipe at traditional DMs like Wanyama when we were initially being linked and are now doubling down on that position rather than holding their hands up.

 

[scaramanga]

I see little difference between Dier and Wanyama in terms of ability in possession, I think Dier certainly has better vision for a pass than Wanyama, but counteracts the credit he builds up here by also gifting the opposition a chance in every single game with a ridiculous give away. Wanyama is the better of the two in terms of running with the ball. Out of possession I think that Wanyama is the better player. If both are fit and on form then Wanyama would always get my pick.

I actually feel a little sorry for Dier at the moment as it looks as though he isn't completely fit and I think this is affecting his performances. The problem is that Wanyama is also not fit, Winks is nowhere near back to his best and Dembele's schedule has to be managed carefully. I think Poch is being forced to pick Dier by default at the moment and it is making Dier look worse than he actually is.

This, I suspect is where we differ then.

Dier is no Pirlo, but his understanding of building a passage of play is second only to Winks in all our central midfield players. I'd rank Wanyama rock bottom of that list, including those who can play there in a pinch for us. His physical passing ability - the ability to make the ball go where he intends it - is absolutely fine. His ability to see what will best serve the team in terms of building an attacking movement or retaining possession is weak, IMO. There's a possibility that Sissoko would end up below Wanyama on that list, but as it's impossible to tell whether he intends most of what he does, he'll have to be left out.

 

[scaramanga]

A few posters backed themselves in to a corner talking up Dier whilst talking a swipe at traditional DMs like Wanyama ehen we were initislly being linked and are now doubling down on that position rather than holding their hands up.

Just because we bought Wanyama, doesn't make it right. We bought Sissoko we bought Llorente - building a team around their styles would be suicidal.

 

[billyiddo]

Just because we bought Wanyama, doesn't make it right. We bought Sissoko we bought Llorente - building a team around their styles would be suicidal.

If Dier became a competent DM from here it would be an improvement on what he has been serving up for the last year or so - you seem to be under the illusion he is something more progressive than that but there's nothing in his play that backs that up.

 

[Finney Is Back]

This, I suspect is where we differ then.

Dier is no Pirlo, but his understanding of building a passage of play is second only to Winks in all our central midfield players. I'd rank Wanyama rock bottom of that list, including those who can play there in a pinch for us. His physical passing ability - the ability to make the ball go where he intends it - is absolutely fine. His ability to see what will best serve the team in terms of building an attacking movement or retaining possession is weak, IMO. There's a possibility that Sissoko would end up below Wanyama on that list, but as it's impossible to tell whether he intends most of what he does, he'll have to be left out.

You are right, Dier is certainly no Pirlo. If you look at every player in our 'first team' and compare them to a 'Pirlo' standard player in their position then Dier is probably the further away from that ideal.

 

[glasgowspur]

Has poch not said that although dier thinks his best position is dm poch disagrees and sees him as a CB?
So will poch gradually move him back into the back three to rotate/replace Toby or Jan?

 

[the dza]

Has poch not said that although dier thinks his best position is dm poch disagrees and sees him as a CB?
So will poch gradually move him back into the back three to rotate/replace Toby or Jan?

I could see that happening.