ENIC

[billyiddo]

ah yes Liverpool, who managed to stop their star footballer from joining that mighty footballing force Arsenal - who finished 4th last season a point above 5th and who haven't won a trophy for as long as we've been up there behind them. Suarez must have been dying to join them in the summer almost as much as Bale was after a move to Madrid - i wonder what would have happened in the summer had Real been in for Suarez for a record breaking transfer fee whilst we had to fight off the neighbors for Bale? :-k id have to question the sanity of someone who doesn't think it would be Suarez strutting his stuff in Madrid whilst we get the benefit of Bale for another year.

i wonder how United were able to get Rooney to sign a new contract as well - did anyone actually bid for him btw? 300k per week and continue playing in the champions league for the biggest club in the world - not a bad deal, eh?

either way i don't think that's much of an argument you're putting forward mate if those are your best examples.

If I remember correctly, they fended off Barca for 3 years with Fabregas, United for 1 with RVP and I think they sold Nasri pretty much straight off. We sold Berbatov, Carrick and Bale the first time the big boys came knocking, the only one we forced to stay any longer was Modric and that was for one season. Of course it set them back but they still continually qualifies for CL and are now reaping the benifits as they have the money to finally replace them having paid off their stadium. It seems to me like they looked at the bigger picture and had a long term plan.

don't recall RVP to United the year before i have to say, but you are right with Fabregas tbf - my point with Arsenal was that even they are forced to sell players they don't want to at some stage, of course they will be able to hold on a bit tighter than us, what with the CL and more money behind them, but ultimately there's no escaping the inevitable. there was no plan with the sale of these players - they just couldn't keep a hold anymore.


edit: apologizes if i came off patronizing there by the way :lol:

 

[thfcsteff]

I like Forte, not sure Cutler is worth that contract though.

It's a massive gamble and frankly, I don't think he's up to it.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

ah yes Liverpool, who managed to stop their star footballer from joining that mighty footballing force Arsenal - who finished 4th last season a point above 5th and who haven't won a trophy for as long as we've been up there behind them. Suarez must have been dying to join them in the summer almost as much as Bale was after a move to Madrid - i wonder what would have happened in the summer had Real been in for Suarez for a record breaking transfer fee whilst we had to fight off the neighbors for Bale? :-k id have to question the sanity of someone who doesn't think it would be Suarez strutting his stuff in Madrid whilst we get the benefit of Bale for another year.

i wonder how United were able to get Rooney to sign a new contract as well - did anyone actually bid for him btw? 300k per week and continue playing in the champions league for the biggest club in the world - not a bad deal, eh?

either way i don't think that's much of an argument you're putting forward mate if those are your best examples.

Both Suarez and Rooney came out and said they wanted to leave in the summer. Both clubs said they weren't for sale. Had a world record bid come in for Suarez then Liverpool probably would have accepted, but it doesn't matter how much money was offered and who they bought with the money, they would still be worse off without Suarez than they are now. This is because they can't replace him with the same caliber of player as they are not CL regulars, they would have to (like us) start again with another (or a number of) relatively unknown entity. And so the cycle starts again.

I suppose the basis of my point is, you never benefit from selling your best players if they are truely top class, no-matter what the offer is.

 

[billyiddo]

Both Suarez and Rooney came out and said they wanted to leave in the summer. Both clubs said they weren't for sale. Had a world record bid come in for Suarez then Liverpool probably would have accepted, but it doesn't matter how much money was offered and who they bought with the money, they would still be worse off without Suarez than they are now. This is because they can't replace him with the same caliber of player as they are not CL regulars, they would have to (like us) start again with another (or a number of) relatively unknown entity. And so the cycle starts again.

I suppose the basis of my point is, you never benefit from selling your best players if they are truely top class, no-matter what the offer is.

i certainly do not disagree with that and agree with your points regarding that. my point when initially replying to you was that i thought it was harsh to criticize Levy too much for doing this when many clubs sell their best players in the same circumstances - even ones bigger than ourselves (it's not something which only we are guilty of - it's a problem many others face) believe me i share your frustration.


anyway - ive kinda taken over in this thread so i'll try and keep out for a while now

 

[Superhudd]

So Billy, In your opinion how long should Levy be given.

I get the feeling many feel he should be left to coast along making absurd footballing decisions. It does make me laugh that people believe that Levy is the only man out there that can do a great job at running a business under strict FFP guidelines. Like any industry, pay the money you get the better people. Go out and bring in the top finance guy at Bayern as an example. Why has Levy recently decided to outsource the job of finding sponsorship for the club, why can he not do it, or should I say, his recent choices in employing in this field have somewhat been a let down recently. Yet another let down by him.

If Levy didn't own shares in ENIC he would have been gone by now IMO.

The club has been at a cross roads since 2008, Levy has failed getting us over the hump.. time to try someone else.

 

[billyiddo]

Superhudd - Levy is co owner of THFC, i believe (and may be wrong here) that he personally owns a stake rather than through ENIC so it isn't a question of who can and cannot be employed it's a case of who would buy us and run the club better - again to you same questions as before - which i don't believe you've answered by the way - if we are stagnating under him and what we are doing is nothing out of the ordinary why has no one club consistently been challenging us for the past 8 seasons?

re your question : im happy to have him here until the new stadium is built and paid for - at a minimum (unless something drastically bad happens) once we're banking the added gate receipts id then be looking to see how he fares with the extra money - if right now he can take the 6th biggest club in terms of revenue to 5th/4th in the league consistently then id have every confidence he could take us with the 3rd/4th highest revenue to challenging for the league.

(obviously the chances of him being here in 2050 when the stadium is finally built are slim but you know...:lol: )

 

[Raziel]

I think ENIC initially got invested in Spurs with the intention of selling within first 5-7 years. I honestly believe that vision has changed (when last you heard any real rumors around Spurs being sold, kind of died off a few years ago).

With the change in TV rights money, the amount you can charge fans, merchandising as well as the potential to create a buy/sell model that profits, football actually for the first time in a long time can turn a profit IF well managed.

Unfortunately the very top is still a money losing game, and I think you see us and the Scum as owned/managed by interests that want both of us "challenging" but not quite willing to play the risk card to make that final push for success.

 

[Skidmark]

re Stub Hub - i may be confused as to what it does but isn't it just fan to fan selling tickets. i know people who use it for every game and rarely pay more than face value - seems better than looking for a tout outside on the street?

Re: Stub Hub: http://www.haringeyindependent.co.uk/news/10988986._/

 

[scaramanga]

I like Forte, not sure Cutler is worth that contract though.

I'm with Urlacher on that one.

 

[Baleforce]

McCown toasted my team in December

 

[indianspur]

I think ENIC initially got invested in Spurs with the intention of selling within first 5-7 years. I honestly believe that vision has changed (when last you heard any real rumors around Spurs being sold, kind of died off a few years ago).

With the change in TV rights money, the amount you can charge fans, merchandising as well as the potential to create a buy/sell model that profits, football actually for the first time in a long time can turn a profit IF well managed.

Unfortunately the very top is still a money losing game, and I think you see us and the Scum as owned/managed by interests that want both of us "challenging" but not quite willing to play the risk card to make that final push for success.

thats a good post. Regarding the rumours about Spurs being sold, i think its mainly due to how much Levy and Lewis would want. The figures I heard were in the 600-700 mill pound region which for a non CL regular club in a 36k old stadium is quite laughable and would scare off nearly all potential buyers

 

[metalgear]

My only major (and it is a major criticism) is that we continually sell our best players and you cannot progress as a club doing that. I feel part of the reason we have had no stability with managers over the years is down to this.

Imagine you are our manager right now, you are probably thinking to yourself, Sandro, Vertonghen maybe Lloris are our only three world class players. You want to build your team around them and their attributes. You know that we can't spend along with City etc so you bring in a young potentially excellent creative CM to play alongside Sandro, or take a risk on a creative CM that the bigger clubs have passed on.

You've built on what you have and the young attacking CM turns out to be a good buy and you finish the season in a decent position. You're thinking to yourself, CM sorted, right lets move on to address our issues at centre back. We have Verts who was fantastic for us this season, lets pick up another promising young centre half who will attack the ball. You get who you want and think, spine is looking really strong here, then Madrid come in and bid big money for Sandro and Verts. Sold. Back to square one. Struggle next season due to the spine you'd built up being torn apart. Get sacked and new manager brought in.

Rinse and Repeat. Young CM tuns out to be world class, next guy starts to build the team round him. Then he's sold.

And so on and so on.............

We will never move to the next tier until we stop selling our best players.

its a good think if we sell our one best player to strengthen the team no?

 

[billyiddo]

Re: Stub Hub: http://www.haringeyindependent.co.uk/news/10988986._/

Cheers, will be interesting to see if the Club responds

 

[90291Spur]

its a good think if we sell our one best player to strengthen the team no?

That is great in theory, but in practice I can't recall that happening. And while our points tally is pretty good this year we have been hammered a few times and are still in 6th in the division.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

its a good think if we sell our one best player to strengthen the team no?

My point is that with our current policy we can't do that. We can't buy players at the same immediate standard of said best player, we have to buy potential. As soon as that potential reaches it's realisation, it's sold on and we are in a never ending cycle of re-building.

 

[Baleforce]

My point is that with our current policy we can't do that. We can't buy players at the same immediate standard of said best player, we have to buy potential. As soon as that potential reaches it's realisation, it's sold on and we are in a never ending cycle of re-building.

if you can get it into a rotation you are fine, the trick would have been to buy bales replacement 2/3 years ago for example and slot him in now, maybe that's Townsend

it'll work if you always have a master and padawan in each position (it's works on FM anyway)

 

[Libero]

thats a good post. Regarding the rumours about Spurs being sold, i think its mainly due to how much Levy and Lewis would want. The figures I heard were in the 600-700 mill pound region which for a non CL regular club in a 36k old stadium is quite laughable and would scare off nearly all potential buyers

Normally I would agree with you and a few years ago it would have been a totally unrealistic figure but is it so unrealistic now? What with all the tv money coming in, the plans for the ground hopefully almost at planning permission stage, the new training ground, current sponser/supplier contracts, playing staff currently on the books as marketable assets?

Taking all those things into consideration and how regularly we have challenged the top 4 in the last decade I would say that around £500-600m is probably about right when we were roughly valued at about £290m around 5-6 years ago.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

if you can get it into a rotation you are fine, the trick would have been to buy bales replacement 2/3 years ago for example and slot him in now, maybe that's Townsend

it'll work if you always have a master and padawan in each position (it's works on FM anyway)

Maybe it is, but he's still only potential.

Let's take our current midfield for example. Say TS settles on Sandro, Bentaleb and Paulinho as a chosen 3. Sandro is proven, Paulinho and bentaleb both potential. Next season both those players fulfil their potential we have a good season and just miss out on top 4.

At that point, We as a club should be doing everything in our power to keep all three. Our starting midfield is sorted, our manager can now focus on strengthening other areas knowing that by doing so he's building a team capable of qualifying for CL. But what will probably happen is someone with big bucks will come after Sandro and Levy will sell for what he claims was the right price and 'the player wants to play in the CL, what could we do to stop him'

Manager is back to the drawing board with the midfield and on top of that still has to strengthen the other areas.

Constant state of flux.

 

[milo]

Maybe it is, but he's still only potential.

Let's take our current midfield for example. Say TS settles on Sandro, Bentaleb and Paulinho as a chosen 3. Sandro is proven, Paulinho and bentaleb both potential. Next season both those players fulfil their potential we have a good season and just miss out on top 4.

At that point, We as a club should be doing everything in our power to keep all three. Our starting midfield is sorted, our manager can now focus on strengthening other areas knowing that by doing so he's building a team capable of qualifying for CL. But what will probably happen is someone with big bucks will come after Sandro and Levy will sell for what he claims was the right price and 'the player wants to play in the CL, what could we do to stop him'

Manager is back to the drawing board with the midfield and on top of that still has to strengthen the other areas.

Constant state of flux.

The problem is that to hold onto those players and fend off interest from clubs like Real Madrid, we would have to match the wages they would earn there and we cannot afford to do that.

Even if we could find the money to hold onto one star (say Sandro) then the others' agents (Verts, Lloris, Ade) will come knocking asking for a pay rise too.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

The problem is that to hold onto those players and fend off interest from clubs like Real Madrid, we would have to match the wages they would earn there and we cannot afford to do that.

Even if we could find the money to hold onto one star (say Sandro) then the others' agents (Verts, Lloris, Ade) will come knocking asking for a pay rise too.

An unfortunate symptom of modern football.

But................ players sign contracts and even though people say it, we are under no obligation to allow a player to leave (or improve their contract when they come knocking) until their contract is up and they are free to go. The current evidence seems to suggest that forcing a player to stay does not have a seriously negative impact on their performance.

It's a risk based approach. Is it worth forcing Sandro to stay right up until the end of his contract in the hope that a few of our other 'gems' realise their potential and end up with us qualifying for the CL. Once there we can sign a better class of player immediately in order to stay there and then we offer Sandro his big money deal in order to stay with us, which he's more likely to sign because he see's our intent.

Even then, if he still decides to walk, we are in the CL and should be able to attract someone of a similar calibre (and can afford them) who will hit the ground running (or at least more quickly than an unknown) and the midfield is still no weaker.