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ENIC

Jurgen the German said:
Because the three promoted teams were awful. However you slice it we finished 17th. And we’ve been declining ever since poch left.
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I loved Poch and I wouldn’t have sacked him when Levy did. But we got champs league with Conte. Plus won a cup with Ange.

These new pricķs have shown nothing by regression
 
Finney Is Back said:
It’s my silly game to say that I think signing players who have already proven they can handle the pace and physicality of the PL is less of a gamble? I’m not sure what even makes that a game, let alone a silly one?

I thought the silly game was naming selective players to try to prove/disprove the above but I suppose the rules for this silly game are set by you ;)
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I refer the right honourable gentleman to the answer I gave some moments ago.

ie there are always good/bad examples on both sides of the argument...so nullifies the point of the argument in the first place
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
Kinda feel this debate has taken a bit of a mad turn. Like…of course signings from abroad can work, of course proven PL signings can work. Is it more likely that proven PL players will be up to speed to perform and achieve results more quickly? Yes. Is there value from abroad? Also yes.

The point is surely that under Levy, we never would have had this summer. We might have signed the odd big money player, but we were never seriously competing with the biggest clubs for proven PL talent. We didn’t want to pay the wages, so we had to gamble. And we very nearly did it that way in 2019.

I look at this summer sort of like Liverpool’s after Hicks and Gillet. They went from signing mid table players to starting to compete seriously again under FSG. It doesn’t mean it’s all going to happen for us this season, but I think it’s undeniable that having better, proven, players is more likely to lead to success. It’s clearly much less of a gamble. So long as we can afford the wages, we should be fine!
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But we have been signing mid table players? They've just come with a huge mark up in price which i think has pulled the wool over peoples eyes.

We've started the season with Gray at Right Back behind Mikey Moore and still with Richarlison at CF - that's a crazy place to be in which would ordinarily have people howling.

And I'm sorry but paying 75m British pounds for an attacker with one goal and assist in the last 12 months is not going to improve things at all.
 
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DTA said:
Not over Levy’s entire tenure it wasn’t. Quite the opposite. That’s indisputable.

But under the Nepos and agent VV it has been
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But the last 7 years since Poch left we have undoubtedly gone backwards, one top 4 finish aside. A manager would not be in the job if he has oversaw that decline over 7 years.
 
billyiddo said:
But we have been signing mid table players? They've just come with a huge mark up in price which i think has pulled the wool over peoples eyes.

We've started the season with Gray at Right Back behind Mikey Moore and still with Richarlison at CF - that's a crazy place to be in which would ordinarily have people howling.

And I'm sorry but paying 75m British pounds for an attacker with one goal and assist in the last 12 months is not going to improve things at all.
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We started a relegation line up yesterday and people are actually shocked we got thumped? Wtf have they been watching for the last 2 years? 🤣🤣
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
They are not. If I take your categorisation literally.
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I’m not sure what your point is or why you wouldn’t take something that I say literally…there is a clear difference between signing players with experience in this league versus signing from abroad. There’s a difference between paying the money to sign players ahead of other big clubs and losing those same players to them. I think getting hung up on the word ‘proven’ is getting away from the point. Everyone we’ve signed or will sign will likely have shown they can perform in this league and know what it takes. Some may not be at their absolute peak yet, and some may need a move to us for more regular football, but for the purposes of this discussion I’d say they are proven.

Like…I don’t think there is a doubt Savinho can do it in our league. There is a doubt he was enough to start consistently for City given who else they have, which is a different thing.
 
billyiddo said:
But we have been signing mid table players? They've just come with a huge mark up in price which i think has pulled the wool over peoples eyes.

We've started the season with Gray at Right Back behind Mikey Moore and still with Richarlison at CF - that's a crazy place to be in which would ordinarily have people howling.

And I'm sorry but paying 75m British pounds for an attacker with one goal and assist in the last 12 months is not going to improve things at all.
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I guess we can bookmark this post and come back to it when we’ve had time to see whether Savinho has improved us or not. I think he probably will.

My point around mid table players is that Liverpool prior to FSG were signing players that weren’t wanted by the biggest clubs. As were we. We wouldn’t really compete for the very best at the top of the market, at the start of the window. We were swimming in a different pool. It’s about whether those players are wanted by top clubs and would command the wages of top clubs that dictate whether they are mid table or not. I would not classify any of the players we’ve signed as mid table.

I agree that we had some weak points in our starting 11 yesterday. But people are not howling because we’ve clearly done good business this summer, clearly made an effort to change how things are done, and the window is not over. The manager has also prioritised injury prevention and has been extra cautious around that.
 
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SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
I guess we can bookmark this post and come back to it when we’ve had time to see whether Savinho has improved us or not. I think he probably will.

My point around mid table players is that Liverpool prior to FSG were signing players that weren’t wanted by the biggest clubs. As were we. We wouldn’t really compete for the very best at the top of the market, at the start of the window. We were swimming in a different pool. It’s about whether those players are wanted by top clubs and would command the wages of top clubs that dictate whether they are mid table or not. I would classify any of the players we’ve signed as mid table.

I agree that we had some weak points in our starting 11 yesterday. But people are not howling because we’ve clearly done good business this summer, clearly made an effort to change how things are done, and the window is not over. The manager has also prioritised injury prevention and has been extra cautious around that.
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We've clearly been active and happy to throw the cash around (on the never never) but the jury remains out on whether or not we have actually done good business this summer.
 
billyiddo said:
We've clearly been active and happy to throw the cash around (on the never never) but the jury remains out on whether or not we have actually done good business this summer.
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Sure, but I think the business we’ve done gives us a much higher chance of ultimately being successful.

The jury will have been out on Allison and VVD when Liverpool signed them. But they pushed the boat out on missing pieces and brought in real quality.

I don’t think with the way the league is now that we have the option to do anything else, if we want to be successful.
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
I’m not sure what your point is or why you wouldn’t take something that I say literally…there is a clear difference between signing players with experience in this league versus signing from abroad. There’s a difference between paying the money to sign players ahead of other big clubs and losing those same players to them. I think getting hung up on the word ‘proven’ is getting away from the point. Everyone we’ve signed or will sign will likely have shown they can perform in this league and know what it takes. Some may not be at their absolute peak yet, and some may need a move to us for more regular football, but for the purposes of this discussion I’d say they are proven.

Like…I don’t think there is a doubt Savinho can do it in our league. There is a doubt he was enough to start consistently for City given who else they have, which is a different thing.
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I was not even replying to the 'pl Vs foreign' signing debate, I've been clear about that in other posts.

I'm not getting 'hung up' on the word proven BUT I'm simply asking if we agree on what that means.

To me it means.
Bruno Fernandes
Rice
João Pedro
Porro
Guimares
Palmer
Gabriel
McGinn
Watkins
Bowen
Mitoma
Etc

And as we move into big fees and big wages the more we should be looking for as near to guaranteed improvements. That is literally the point of moving in that direction.

For some it appears set in stone these are improvements/upgrades. But they are just bigger fees and bigger wages. That's oiled the wheels of getting the deals done BUT why should I think Tonali is any better than when Bentancur walked in the door?

That list I've thrown together above...I'd have full confidence that Id know what I'm getting.

If you have a different definition of 'proven' fair enough mate.
 
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