CL Qualification vs Cups - The Neverending Story

[Lemonade Money]

I think trophies are like goals, yeah you might fluke one every now and then, but, they are an inevitable result of doing things the right way, our ultimate goal should always be to improve, if we keep improving, we'll win trophies

Not if we keep putting B teams in the cup competitions we won't.

 

[Baleforce]

Not if we keep putting B teams in the cup competitions we won't.

the B team would be improving too

domestic cups are not the only trophies out there

 

[Lemonade Money]

the B team would be improving too

domestic cups are not the only trophies out there

Doesn't matter how good they are, if you're throwing a group of players in to a team with no game time together, they're not going to suddenly gel. I was including all cups, and we've put brick teams out in Europe too.

 

[Lemonade Money]

I think the point @billyiddo is making, is that there's no reason to believe that the first trophy is just a hump to get over, other than a lot of people who advocate going for trophies saying so.

Looking at who has won trophies in this country lately, you have top teams who win a lot because they're top teams and then you have Leicester, Wigan, Portsmouth, Swansea, Bimingham, Boro, etc. I don't think there's anything to suggest that winning the first trophy was just a hump to any of those teams, or that any of them are more likely to win another one for having done so.

What is clear, looking at that list, is that the top 2 or 3 teams in the country keep winning pretty much everything.

The flip side is Leeds finished in the top 4 three years running, or Arsenal finishing in the top 4 forever.

 

[scaramanga]

The flip side is Leeds finished in the top 4 three years running, or Arsenal finishing in the top 4 forever.

I think Leeds were in a position where a group of players all came together at once - that and little other competition to keep them back.

Arsenal are still a good way ahead of us in terms of progress - if we can emulate 10-15 years of CL qualification and a few cup wins, I'll be happy. That didn't come from focusing on the cups though - the league has always been their priority and the cup wins have come naturally from being a better side.

 

[Lemonade Money]

I think Leeds were in a position where a group of players all came together at once - that and little other competition to keep them back.

Not sure about this, they were a 'money' club and bought a team, no?

Arsenal are still a good way ahead of us in terms of progress - if we can emulate 10-15 years of CL qualification and a few cup wins, I'll be happy. That didn't come from focusing on the cups though - the league has always been their priority and the cup wins have come naturally from being a better side.

Tell that to gooner fans!

 

[billyiddo]

We are now rated in the top four ( or at least top six ) teams in the country. What we are not yet are winners. So I agree with Park Lane that we need to win a trophy very very soon. If we don't, I can easily foresee the break up of a really promising team - with yet again our key players leaving.

At the end of their careers players want to look back at their winners medals not 2nd, 3rd or 4th place.

I think we have to win something in the next two years to prevent this happening.

The only chance we have of holding on to this group of players long term is continued and sustained involvement at the top of the table challenging for the title - yes players want to win trophies but they don't really care where and the best won't stick around unless you're winning the league - Kane Alli etc won't be kept here with the odd FA or League Cup and nor should I imagine will Pochettino

 

[scaramanga]

Not sure about this, they were a 'money' club and bought a team, no?

I thought they had a few money signings on top of a youth team that all developed at once? That may be my memory screwing with me.

Tell that to gooner fans!

It's natural to always want more. If you only qualify for the CL every now and then, regular qualification seems great. If you qualify all the time, then progressing to the late stages seems great. If you keep progressing to the late stages, then you would start to expect to win it.

 

[Lemonade Money]

Even with the new stadium, we'll be at about Arsenal's level money wise, so still behind Man U, Emirates Marketing Project, Chelsea.

In the same way that Arsene was clever in that he couldn't match these clubs' transfer fees, so he bought cheap but matched their wages, I'd like us to target all the cups every year, and see where we end up in the league (I.e, match these clubs in certain aspects, because otherwise we come second in every aspect). The big clubs play weakened sides in the domestic cups, and we should be able to have a shot at the EL.

I would rather have 10-15 years of cup finals and a few CL qualifications.

 

[Baleforce]

The only chance we have of holding on to this group of players long term is continued and sustained involvement at the top of the table challenging for the title - yes players want to win trophies but they don't really care where and the best won't stick around unless you're winning the league - Kane Alli etc won't be kept here with the odd FA or League Cup and nor should I imagine will Pochettino

I think it will ultimately come down to wages

 

[Lemonade Money]

I thought they had a few money signings on top of a youth team that all developed at once? That may be my memory screwing with me.


It's natural to always want more. If you only qualify for the CL every now and then, regular qualification seems great. If you qualify all the time, then progressing to the late stages seems great. If you keep progressing to the late stages, then you would start to expect to win it.

The point is, they've got what you lot aspire to, and they're in perpetual meltdown!

 

[Jordinho]

I think it will ultimately come down to wages

It's always about the money, only Barca, Real and Bayern can guarantee trophies if you stick around for a few years. Or Celtic if it really is the trophies that matter.

 

[billyiddo]

Even with the new stadium, we'll be at about Arsenal's level money wise, so still behind Man U, Emirates Marketing Project, Chelsea.

In the same way that Arsene was clever in that he couldn't match these clubs' transfer fees, so he bought cheap but matched their wages, I'd like us to target all the cups every year, and see where we end up in the league (I.e, match these clubs in certain aspects, because otherwise we come second in every aspect). The big clubs play weakened sides in the domestic cups, and we should be able to have a shot at the EL.

I would rather have 10-15 years of cup finals and a few CL qualifications.

The way we punch above our financial weight I think if we had had Arsenal levels of money these past few years we'd have blown everyone else out of the water.

The point is, they've got what you lot aspire to, and they're in perpetual meltdown!

I think Scara/Galeforce want titles and Champions league trophies not what Arsenal have - that's where I stand too

 

[Lemonade Money]

The way we punch above our financial weight I think if we had had Arsenal levels of money these past few years we'd have blown everyone else out of the water.



I think Scara/Galeforce want titles and Champions league trophies not what Arsenal have - that's where I stand too

You don't think this sounds slightly deluded?

 

[billyiddo]

You don't think this sounds slightly deluded?

Not at all, better to fail aiming high and all that - guess some people are just happy to succeed aiming low

 

[Pirate55]

The only chance we have of holding on to this group of players long term is continued and sustained involvement at the top of the table challenging for the title - yes players want to win trophies but they don't really care where and the best won't stick around unless you're winning the league - Kane Alli etc won't be kept here with the odd FA or League Cup and nor should I imagine will Pochettino

I don't agree. I really don't think we can realistically win the league in the next few years, challenging for it maybe but we don't have the strength in depth to mount a season long campaign IMO. Last season was an aberration and unlikely to happen again. We simply cannot compete on an equal playing field with the money doped clubs. A cup win is essential IMO to keep our key players - at least until the new stadium helps to make the playing field a bit leveller. Then we can hope to pay them at a similar level and get in some other world class players and then - and only then - will we realistically have a chance of winning this League.

 

[parklane1]

The point is, they've got what you lot aspire to, and they're in perpetual meltdown!

I wish i had a pound for every Spurs supporter who took the tinkle out of Arsenal finishing in the top four for ever but never winning anything. Funny how we seem to think being in the top four ( the runners up) is the way for us to go as well.

 

[billyiddo]

I wish i had a pound for every Spurs supporter who took the tinkle out of Arsenal finishing in the top four for ever but never winning anything. Funny how we seem to think being in the top four ( the runners up) is the way for us to go as well.

has anyone said that the aim is to get in the top 4 and not progress any further? because i think you're arguing against an opinion that no one holds

 

[parklane1]

Doesn't matter how good they are, if you're throwing a group of players in to a team with no game time together, they're not going to suddenly gel. I was including all cups, and we've put brick teams out in Europe too.

That is it, making a few changes is fine making nine like we did against Wycome was a mistake, it sure helped us win three points at Sunderland ( not).

 

[parklane1]

has anyone said that the aim is to get in the top 4 and not progress any further? because i think you're arguing against an opinion that no one holds

OK a quick question. If we make the top four for several years but end up winning nothing would you be happy with that? It seems that some ( not saying you) have no regard for the cup competitions.