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"Champions of 3rd place, we know what we are"

4-0 yeah but the two goals either side of half time killed the contest. The semi it took them to extra time to overcome a Championship side in Hull City and arguably were second best and were lucky to go through - how does that fit your narrative?

We're getting too deep in to something that im not really interested in giving too much time tbh mate so forgive my frankness in reply - i just wanted to agree with what Nayim was saying.

Im not saying Arsenal dont peak at certain times but everything else suggests to me that is less so by design and more so habitual - they have been underperforming for years now and id have expected to have seen some kind of change in pattern/approach in this area in order to bring about an upturn in fortune were this all really a Wenger plan (to peak late in the season) no change in pattern suggests to me it isnt something that is planned as it's the consistent drop offs in form which undermime their season - if it was under his control on the training pitch like you suggest then he should have addressed the issue a long time ago. The fact it hasnt been addressed tells me it isn't under his control
 
I disagree. Clubs tend to play each match as a standalone game. If Arsenal feel the pressure in a league game with (say) 12 league games still to go then they are likely to feel even more pressure in a Cup final where it really is winner takes all. How can you say there is nothing to lose in a Cup final? It makes no sense.

I think the pressure of a season mounts. As much as clubs say "one game at a time" etc its just not true, they know with their competitiors picking up points they must to or be left behind.

Just look at the melting on here 10 days ago, and then try telling me the pressure doesnt add up ;O)

Season over, one off game, and as Billy says usually the underdog, having finished the season in strong form - yes, I think a cup game is entirely different.


And I think you just keep saying 'no, it's nothing to do with conditioning / peaking, it's mentality', but aren't offering any reason as to why it can't be the other way. It stands scrutiny as much that it could be mentality as it does conditioning.

I can't find the quote (I guess it may have been in Fergie's book) but he has spoken before about how Mourinho made him realise he needed to start seasons faster. Obviously he's a winner. Obviously his players see him as a winner. But if he's such a winner, why was he not 'trying' to start seasons as well as he could? What was holding him back from doing that? I'd argue that he needed to tweak their conditioning so they were able to start fast, and maybe they suffer a little bit more mid-season, but at least then Chelsea haven't pulled away. Saying 'they had to step up' does not easily conflate with Fergie being a serial winner who accepted nothing less. There must have been more to it than that. Why did Fergie accept less in those early games, if it is all about mentality?

Mourinho builds a siege mentality but I am talking within a season. He always starts quickly, he did it this season and he did it last season. That is not to do with his siege mentality overall, that is how he starts seasons, as he always does. And why is that? Is he more demanding with his team talks?

Arsenal don't just turn into energiser bunnies, and frankly I used to be totally bought into the idea that Arsenal played better when the pressure was off until I learned more. And I saw what Poch was doing with us, which then made a lot of sense. Arsenal playing well with no pressure is as much a narrative that we are only able to put the pressure on rather than be the leaders. I don't buy it - if we had more quality and depth, we'd be able to get out in front. And relative to our pre-season expectations, we were absolutely way ahead of where we needed to be last season for example.

I don't think they turn into bunnies, but I think there is a noticeable difference in the tempo that teams adopt over a season. Sometimes Arsenal are ponderous, and sometimes that's because they are just bad. But a lot of the time, I think they play a higher tempo because that is the time that they have prepped to play it, and that gives them a greater chance of winning, as that does to us. But let's say they played a high tempo but couldn't sustain it over a game, because they were knackered and hadn't peaked...they'd be more likely to get picked off and not win those games, because their strategy isn't aligned to their condition. That's why I think form is predictable. Mentality is different a part of it, but I don't think everything comes underneath it. I think it is all linked. How you motivate our group depends on the players we have, and how you get them to play, and train, and condition them is all linked to what kind of players we have. It is hollistic.

I compare our games against Swansea, WBA or Bournemouth at home to our games against Everton and Man United recently and it is absolute night and day, in terms of the tempo we adopt. It is a completely different pass selection that we use, we are a lot less safe, a lot more aggressive, and we are pouring forward at every opportunity. We are more patient in some of those earlier season games, and sometimes this gets written off that we just couldn't get going, but I think it's somewhat deliberate. We play a more patient style in earlier games or when we haven't peaked, and when we play a more aggressive style, it's because we are peaking, and we know we can sustain it rather than getting picked off. And maybe now, because we're peaking, we may be able to sustain it twice in a week for example, but we absolutely couldn't do it earlier in the season. We played a high tempo vs Madrid and then a slow game against Palace where we just needed the result. But there's a big argument to say if we tried to play the same way against Palace, they could well have picked us off particularly later in the game.

Im not saying its nothing to do with conditioning. Im saying conditioning is a small variable in the equation, mentality being the main thing that drives all else (including conditioning) and separates the teams at the end of the day.

We have seen as a club the impact of proper fitness. Conditioning is of course a thing. And yes, Ill even go with the idea that different managers have different points in the season where they hit top form.

But its not THE thing. Its not a defining thing. Its a thing that, at this level, is a minor variance between sides. Like general quality, at our level not many teams have better players than us.

Why did Fergie raise his game? Because he had to. He was a winner. He was challenged. He met that challenge.

Mourinhos team came along and hit the ground running, yes. Conditioning was a part of that, yes. Not the defining factor. Mourinho would happily sit back and grind out wins as early as the first day of the season, he didnt necessarily win via fitness - it was an attitude/mentality thing. Just as, he would start games fast, get a goal, and then as early as they 10th minute sit on a 1-0 and just pick teams off on the break. This is not a fitness thing.

But, because of that willingness to grind, he was picking up points at an alarming rate - which was the gauntlet laid down for Fergie to match.

And, while Fergie wasnt above grinding out a win, or getting a spawny last minute winner, he never went about it in the same way as Mourinho did he? Because his mentality was different.

Part of keeping up the pace for the season was improved fitness, and squad composition and management. Its all details under the larger challenge. Set by ones mentality.

And, its at about this point, Arsenal slipped away - as Ive been saying - NOT due to fitness and conditioning, but mentality. Wenger didnt have the desire to get involved in the pressure, like his team.
 
4-0 yeah but the two goals either side of half time killed the contest. The semi it took them to extra time to overcome a Championship side in Hull City and arguably were second best and were lucky to go through - how does that fit your narrative?

We're getting too deep in to something that im not really interested in giving too much time tbh mate so forgive my frankness in reply - i just wanted to agree with what Nayim was saying.

Im not saying Arsenal dont peak at certain times but everything else suggests to me that is less so by design and more so habitual - they have been underperforming for years now and id have expected to have seen some kind of change in pattern/approach in this area in order to bring about an upturn in fortune were this all really a Wenger plan (to peak late in the season) no change in pattern suggests to me it isnt something that is planned as it's the consistent drop offs in form which undermime their season - if it was under his control on the training pitch like you suggest then he should have addressed the issue a long time ago. The fact it hasnt been addressed tells me it isn't under his control
I agree
 
I think the pressure of a season mounts. As much as clubs say "one game at a time" etc its just not true, they know with their competitiors picking up points they must to or be left behind.

Just look at the melting on here 10 days ago, and then try telling me the pressure doesnt add up ;O)

Season over, one off game, and as Billy says usually the underdog, having finished the season in strong form - yes, I think a cup game is entirely different.
Again. I disagree with you. IMO Arsenal do not win the league these days as they are not good enough, not because they can't handle the pressure at some random pressure point about 25 or whatever games into the season.

There is far more pressure on one off games such as cup semi finals and finals compared to any league game (other than those at the very end of the season if you are fighting for the title or a CL place) and Arsenal's record in Cup semis and finals is very good. Remember that not only is Arsenal's Cup semi final and final record good, but their record going into the last few games of the season to achieve their objective of finishing in the top 4 is also very good.

When the pressure is on Arsenal actually tend to perform. The same cannot always be said about us thus far under Pochettino.
 
Arsenal were top of the league in the new year after beating Leicester at home(?) The year we 'fudged up' 2nd - they were and are a much stronger side than Leicester and had every reason to see it out but brick the bed when the pressure was on.

There was another season when they got themselves well in the title hunt, (maybe Girouds first season?) and then went on a terrible run against poor sides that they should have been beating around feb/march before another late season flourish once the title was beyond them and there was no pressure once again.

The idea that Arsenal perform well when the pressure is on couldnt be more perplexing imho
 
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Haven't their recent cup finals/semi finals been when they were the under dog and so the pressure was not on them? Prior to that the semi and final from 4 years ago were against lesser opposition and ones where they were heavy favourites and with that there was much more pressure on them to get the result? And both games (Villa and Hull iirc) they struggled in.

I agree with Nayim here and it is something i have thought myself - Wengers teams (new stadium era that is) only play when they don't have expectation/pressure on them : early season when things haven't settled - do well, talk of title challenge followed by a mid season collapse and then at the end of season when the league is away from them (and no real expectation) pick up a bit of form again.
The pressure is always on in a Cup final or semi final, irrespective of whether you are the underdog or the favourite. Last season they beat Emirates Marketing Project and Chelsea as underdogs in the last two rounds of the FA Cup, but in their previous wins they were the favourites and also won. I think their Cup record is bloody brilliant this past few years to be honest. Over those last few years I would say that they have been somewhere between the 4th and 6th best team in the league and yet they have still picked up a number of trophies, to me that doesn't suggest a team who cannot handle the pressure, that instead suggests a team who are not good enough to win the league, but actually handle the pressure very well in big matches. IMO if we handled the pressure as well as Arsenal do in the big matches then we would've picked up two or three trophies ourselves in the past few years, we have a better team than Arsenal, but haven't turned that into Silverware.
 
Again. I disagree with you. IMO Arsenal do not win the league these days as they are not good enough, not because they can't handle the pressure at some random pressure point about 25 or whatever games into the season.

There is far more pressure on one off games such as cup semi finals and finals compared to any league game (other than those at the very end of the season if you are fighting for the title or a CL place) and Arsenal's record in Cup semis and finals is very good. Remember that not only is Arsenal's Cup semi final and final record good, but their record going into the last few games of the season to achieve their objective of finishing in the top 4 is also very good.

When the pressure is on Arsenal actually tend to perform. The same cannot always be said about us thus far under Pochettino.

Im not even talking about them winning the league, just their performance within it.

Their form is always predictable. Start well, continue strongly, hit the post Christmas mark of staring down the barrell of the title run, falter badly, drop out of CL, lose pace and end up falling back to the point where they cant really compete, start playing well again through to the end of the year.

The cups come at a time when the season is over, they are in form, and have little else to focus on.

This year should be interesting because Ive long held the view that Europa is harder to play in and also compete in the league than CL, so it will be a real test of them.


And, also, what Billy said.
 
Arsenal were top of the league in the new year after beating Leicester at home(?) The year we 'fudged up' 2nd - they were and are a much stronger side than Leicester and had every reason to see it out but brick the bed when the pressure was on.
As did we. There were numerous games that we had the chance to put pressure on Leicester and failed.... The home game against them, an away game at Liverpool, the game away at West Ham and also the home game against West Brom. Every one of them we failed to perform. Even the Chelsea away game we bottled it from being 2-0 up to gift Leicester the title.

Arsenal fell away gradually because they weren't good enough IMO, they didn't get close enough to the line to 'bottle it'. We were a better team than Arsenal but we failed to take our opportunities when it really mattered. To the extent that we even ended up finishing behind them despite being a better team than them. Our choking has been far worse than Arsenal's over the past few years IMO. Our big games in the Cup have emphasized this even more.
 
Im not even talking about them winning the league, just their performance within it.

Their form is always predictable. Start well, continue strongly, hit the post Christmas mark of staring down the barrell of the title run, falter badly, drop out of CL, lose pace and end up falling back to the point where they cant really compete, start playing well again through to the end of the year.

The cups come at a time when the season is over, they are in form, and have little else to focus on.

This year should be interesting because Ive long held the view that Europa is harder to play in and also compete in the league than CL, so it will be a real test of them.

And, also, what Billy said.
Or do they just hit the post around the Christmas mark because they aren't strong enough overall in their squad and the Christmas period tends to be a busy one where squads have to be used and Arsenal's aren't strong enough? They then play well towards the end of the year when the games are coming less thick and fast again?

The Cups are played throughout the course of the season, they don't suddenly start up once the league has finished. Equally Arsenal are often under pressure towards the end of the season to cling on to/get into the CL and have been successful in getting into the CL every season other than last. Again - everything they do points completely against them bottling it, just not being good enough for a sustained title push.
 
The pressure is always on in a Cup final or semi final, irrespective of whether you are the underdog or the favourite. Last season they beat Emirates Marketing Project and Chelsea as underdogs in the last two rounds of the FA Cup, but in their previous wins they were the favourites and also won. I think their Cup record is bloody brilliant this past few years to be honest. Over those last few years I would say that they have been somewhere between the 4th and 6th best team in the league and yet they have still picked up a number of trophies, to me that doesn't suggest a team who cannot handle the pressure, that instead suggests a team who are not good enough to win the league, but actually handle the pressure very well in big matches. IMO if we handled the pressure as well as Arsenal do in the big matches then we would've picked up two or three trophies ourselves in the past few years, we have a better team than Arsenal, but haven't turned that into Silverware.

One of the major complaints of Wenger from their fans is his inability to perform in big matches funnily enough - they are regularly on the end of hidings against sides they are competing with in the league and also in Europe every time they reach the knockout stages - they're currently on a purple patch of cup wins which i think probably distorts the overall picture.
 
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As did we. There were numerous games that we had the chance to put pressure on Leicester and failed.... The home game against them, an away game at Liverpool, the game away at West Ham and also the home game against West Brom. Every one of them we failed to perform. Even the Chelsea away game we bottled it from being 2-0 up to gift Leicester the title.

Arsenal fell away gradually because they weren't good enough IMO, they didn't get close enough to the line to 'bottle it'. We were a better team than Arsenal but we failed to take our opportunities when it really mattered. To the extent that we even ended up finishing behind them despite being a better team than them. Our choking has been far worse than Arsenal's over the past few years IMO. Our big games in the Cup have emphasized this even more.

Im not sure what the relevance is of our performances in a discussion about Arsenal? We have under performed in big matches and Iirc Pochettino took a bit of flak around the time of that 2nd to 3rd season over us running out of steam in the run in, his time at Southampton was also used to further the notion that his teams run out of steam in the second half of the season... what has happened since is a sign that he has worked to improve that with us finishing the following season strongly and look set to do so again this year - but Wenger and Arsenal? Same pattern year after year with the same faults being exposed every time with no sign of improvement after 10+ years
 
Or do they just hit the post around the Christmas mark because they aren't strong enough overall in their squad and the Christmas period tends to be a busy one where squads have to be used and Arsenal's aren't strong enough? They then play well towards the end of the year when the games are coming less thick and fast again?

The Cups are played throughout the course of the season, they don't suddenly start up once the league has finished. Equally Arsenal are often under pressure towards the end of the season to cling on to/get into the CL and have been successful in getting into the CL every season other than last. Again - everything they do points completely against them bottling it, just not being good enough for a sustained title push.

Id say it is a more credible alternative than some peaking nonsense.

Though if you look at the schedule, Christmas itself is of course busy - but otherwise there is a 5-6 week period where the cups and european games drop away, leaving only the league between Dec-Feb.

Why, if its a squad thing, do they do ok in the busy period pre Christmas and not the bust period post Christmas?
 
November is usually when things go to brick for them. Years of poor results show this. Playing B-sides in the EL meant they lasted till December before dropping off this season. Traditionally they recover again around March, usually once they've been knocked out of the CL. They don't like the cold weather over there.
 
Chelsea vs Liverpool in May. As long as we match their results in the other games 4th place is in our hands. Hopefully they'll slip up a few times before then.
Our game against them will be key (thanks, captain Obvious). I would want to play them as soon as possible, given the sorry state they are in, but unfortunately we don't face them until April 1. I really wonder what kind of team they will be by then. Will they have a new manager? Will they have downed tools? Will they just continue to struggle like they are now? One thing is for sure, though: they won't have CL to distract them.
 
Arsenal always seemed to flourish after being knocked out of the Champs League.

I don't know if the talk of less pressure is adequate, because there is still pressure on them to make the top 4.

There's pressure now that there's genuine competition for the top 4 positions - and so far in the age of the top 6 they seem to be the ones faltering.
 
The Guardian's football writers are picking us to finish top four, Arsenal to miss out.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/feb/07/premier-league-champions-league-who-will-qualify

Remaining matches amongst top four contenders. Easiest sked goes to Arsenal with only one to play, hardest between Man U and Chelsea with three:

Remaining fixtures between the five teams: Tottenham v Arsenal (10 Feb), Manchester United v Chelsea (25 Feb), Manchester United v Liverpool (10 March), Chelsea v Tottenham (1 Apr), Manchester United v Arsenal (28 April), Chelsea v Liverpool (5 May).
 
The Guardian's football writers are picking us to finish top four, Arsenal to miss out.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/feb/07/premier-league-champions-league-who-will-qualify

Remaining matches amongst top four contenders. Easiest sked goes to Arsenal with only one to play, hardest between Man U and Chelsea with three:

Remaining fixtures between the five teams: Tottenham v Arsenal (10 Feb), Manchester United v Chelsea (25 Feb), Manchester United v Liverpool (10 March), Chelsea v Tottenham (1 Apr), Manchester United v Arsenal (28 April), Chelsea v Liverpool (5 May).
It's great to see we are a unanimous pick by all the Guardian journos. But I think it's a bit disingenuous to not include the Emirates Marketing Project games too, since those are games where the 5 teams could lose points. And depending on when the play City, it may have an impact on the the City team that lines up.

We're playing them right after the second leg of the CL quarterfinal, so may see a more rotated City side than normal.
United are playing them the weekend before us and after the first leg of the CL QF.
Chelsea, on the other hand, are playing them Mar 4, which will be right before City's second leg round of 16.
I'm not even mentioning the Scum here, because well...
 
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