Cann we?

[DubSpur]

Strange how winning a second or third rate trophy like the League Cup or the Conference Tin Pot is somehow celebrated more than achieving qualification for the CL.

How many games does it take to win the LC, five? And whilst the Conference Tin Pot may require more games, you only qualify by finishing 7th in the PL, so it's not even open to the top 30 or 40 teams in Europe. It's just a joke.

It's pure arrogance turning your nose up at any trophy and we've no right to be arrogant with what we've won over the last 30 years.

 

[Baleforce]

Exactly, not seen anyone complain if we were to get CL. But all this worrying about does 5th place get CL, if you're coming 5th when you've had literally no other cup competitions to focus on all year then you really aren't CL ready anyway.

Have seen some fantastic ties and atmospheres in the Europa League knockout stages, and after a season of having no Europe at all I would certainly embrace it....

We are always ready to take the money though

 

[Spur of the moment]

It's pure arrogance turning your nose up at any trophy and we've no right to be arrogant with what we've won over the last 30 years.

If anything the arrogance lies with those who big-up such shallow trophies as the ECL.

 

[Baleforce]

I’m convinced this kind of attitude (I’ve dismissed tournaments like the EL and ECL in the past too) has contributed to our lack of silverware in the last 15 years. I can’t think of any other English club whether they’re bigger than us or smaller that look down on every competition that isn’t the PL or CL like we do. Every other team plays to win when they are in Europe and are delighted when they do. And it’s a bit rich for us to look down our nose at tournaments we have failed to win. Would be somewhat more understandable coming from a Emirates Marketing Project fan as they expect to be in the CL every season so being in anything other than that would represent failure. I wonder if our fans had a similar view on the cup winners cup and the old version of the UEFA cup back in the 70s, 80s and 90s? Just qualifying for the CL really isn’t anything to crow about anymore. I totally got it when we did it in 2010 as it was unknown territory for the club back then, the modern iteration of the European cup/CL anyway.

That's because we are unique though, the clubs smaller than us haven't managed anywhere the consistency with high league places and CL qualification that we have.

The clubs bigger than us all have unlimited funds.

We've had to cut our cloth accordingly, as regular CL qualification has been within reach.

 

[DubSpur]

@Spur of the moment Eh, where did that second quote come from?

 

[Jurgen the German]

Problem is the term silverware elevates tin-pot trophies like the LC and the ECL with winning the CL and PL. There needs to be some acceptance along the line that these are comparatively second or third rate trophies, in the same way as we all acknowledge that winning the Championship is not on a par with winning the PL.

The over-valuation of second-rate trophies is laughable. You cannot win the ECL by finishing as runner-up in the PL but you can if you finish seventh. It's nonsensical.

There is a hierarchy of trophies in European football just like there is in domestic football, that doesn’t mean they are not worth winning, especially when we haven’t actually won them or anything for that matter for 15 years. You could argue that there are too many teams in those competitions but I’d swap an EL or ECL for top 4 this season.

 

[Jurgen the German]

That's because we are unique though, the clubs smaller than us haven't managed anywhere the consistency with high league places and CL qualification that we have.

The clubs bigger than us all have unlimited funds.

We've had to cut our cloth accordingly, as regular CL qualification has been within reach.

Unique in what way? That we are the only member of the “big 6” that doesn’t win anything?

All very well pointing to our high league finishes and I’m not saying we shouldn’t be pleased with them but we don’t have anything tangible to show for it, i.e. a trophy. Do you think Liverpool wanted to be in the CL or EL? Of course they would rather the CL. But they still went out to win the EL, don’t care what anyone says, they were trying to win that competition even if it wasn’t their first choice European football wise.

Villa are doing well on two fronts this season. There’s already talk in the Villa thread of them not being able to compete financially with us just like there was with Leicester when they won the FA cup. That may be true, but all this talk of us playing the long game eventually has to lead us to some success rather than this never ending pocket where we outlast teams by virtue of finishing above them but don’t have anything to show for it beyond the financial rewards.

 

[Spur of the moment]

@Spur of the moment Eh, where did that second quote come from?

You believe it's arrogant to argue certain trophies are over-valued. I say it's no more arrogant than those who deem certain trophies more worthy than qualifying for the CL. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

 

[Baleforce]

Unique in what way? That we are the only member of the “big 6” that doesn’t win anything?

All very well pointing to our high league finishes and I’m not saying we shouldn’t be pleased with them but we don’t have anything tangible to show for it, i.e. a trophy. Do you think Liverpool wanted to be in the CL or EL? Of course they would rather the CL. But they still went out to win the EL, don’t care what anyone says, they were trying to win that competition even if it wasn’t their first choice European football wise.

Villa are doing well on two fronts this season. There’s already talk in the Villa thread of them not being able to compete financially with us just like there was with Leicester when they won the FA cup. That may be true, but all this talk of us playing the long game eventually has to lead us to some success rather than this never ending pocket where we outlast teams by virtue of finishing above them but don’t have anything to show for it beyond the financial rewards.

only member of that group that has to balance the books

those other clubs have had the odd good year and and there, we have consistently been at the top end

regularly being in the CL with the competition we have and our resources is success imo, CL qualification is worth way more than a domestic cup

 

[spurspinter1]

Strange how winning a second or third rate trophy like the League Cup or the Conference Tin Pot is somehow celebrated more than achieving qualification for the CL.

How many games does it take to win the LC, five? And whilst the Conference Tin Pot may require more games, you only qualify by finishing 7th in the PL, so it's not even open to the top 30 or 40 teams in Europe. It's just a joke.

It's strange that winning a tournament format competition is celebrated more than finishing in the top fourth or fifth in a league? Genuinely trying to wrap my head around how you think that is strange.

 

[Baleforce]

It's strange that winning a tournament format competition is celebrated more than finishing in the top fourth or fifth in a league? Genuinely trying to wrap my head around how you think that is strange.

Because the two things are not equal, in difficulty or reward.

 

[DubSpur]

You believe it's arrogant to argue certain trophies are over-valued. I say it's no more arrogant than those who deem certain trophies more worthy than qualifying for the CL. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Well if that's your belief reply it and not put it as a quote from me. I talk enough crap without you making out I said something I didn't

Nobody is saying that a league cup is the equal of a CL or PL, but as we haven't won anything in too long I'd happily settle for a league cup.
Turning your nose up at one is arrogant.

 

[Grays_1890]

I’m convinced this kind of attitude (I’ve dismissed tournaments like the EL and ECL in the past too) has contributed to our lack of silverware in the last 15 years. I can’t think of any other English club whether they’re bigger than us or smaller that look down on every competition that isn’t the PL or CL like we do. Every other team plays to win when they are in Europe and are delighted when they do. And it’s a bit rich for us to look down our nose at tournaments we have failed to win. Would be somewhat more understandable coming from a Emirates Marketing Project fan as they expect to be in the CL every season so being in anything other than that would represent failure. I wonder if our fans had a similar view on the cup winners cup and the old version of the UEFA cup back in the 70s, 80s and 90s? Just qualifying for the CL really isn’t anything to crow about anymore. I totally got it when we did it in 2010 as it was unknown territory for the club back then, the modern iteration of the European cup/CL anyway.

Equally you put all your eggs into winning a "lesser" trophy (an idea I find equally arrogant that we rock up and win). And you don't win it then you have failed and earned less money not winning a lesser cup.

I suppose my view is there are greater riches NOT winning the CL than there are NOT winning the EL because I also think the chances of winning a knock out even lesser is a bif ask of any club. I especially don't think our record of winning lesser stands up to take such risks. For me it's good playground esq what ifs but ultimately IMO you try and finish as high as you can and try your best to.win that you can depending what you end up in.

 

[spurspinter1]

Because the two things are not equal, in difficulty or reward.

Yes, it's harder to prove yourself the best in the competition by winning it than it is by being 4th or potentially 5th place in a different format of competition that is more forgiving than a knockout format. Glad we agree on that!

It's like the rather odd anti trophy phalanx have forgot the literal meaning of winning a competition sometimes. If you have less games and more prestige on the end result, the pressure / expectation is going to make those games harder.

If you look at a player's or club's bio on any website, there's usually this drop-down section titled "honours". Not sure if finishing 4th/5th to then consequently stack it in the competition that you qualified for is found in that section, I wonder why that is?

 

[Jurgen the German]

only member of that group that has to balance the books

those other clubs have had the odd good year and and there, we have consistently been at the top end

regularly being in the CL with the competition we have and our resources is success imo, CL qualification is worth way more than a domestic cup

You’d be arguing the opposite if we had trophies and no CL qualifications. When they debate who is the best player they don’t count up all the money as player has earned, they compare achievements and medals.

 

[Baleforce]

Yes, it's harder to prove yourself the best in the competition by winning it than it is by being 4th or potentially 5th place in a different format of competition that is more forgiving than a knockout format. Glad we agree on that!

It's like the rather odd anti trophy phalanx have forgot the literal meaning of winning a competition sometimes. If you have less games and more prestige on the end result, the pressure / expectation is going to make those games harder.

If you look at a player's or club's bio on any website, there's usually this drop-down section titled "honours". Not sure if finishing 4th/5th to then consequently stack it in the competition that you qualified for is found in that section, I wonder why that is?

It’s harder to qualify for the CL than win a domestic cup IMO.

The reason for the honours board thing is simple, the perception hasn’t caught up with the reality as to where the value is in the respective competitions.

 

[Baleforce]

You’d be arguing the opposite if we had trophies and no CL qualifications. When they debate who is the best player they don’t count up all the money as player has earned, they compare achievements and medals.

I honestly don’t think I would. I’ve been wanging on about the importance of the CL for decades.

Normally they compare ability, many a brick player has won a big trophy, many greats have won fudge all.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I honestly don’t think I would. I’ve been wanging on about the importance of the CL for decades.

Normally they compare ability, many a brick player has won a big trophy, many greats have won fudge all.

Which greats have won fudge all?

 

[Jurgen the German]

Equally you put all your eggs into winning a "lesser" trophy (an idea I find equally arrogant that we rock up and win). And you don't win it then you have failed and earned less money not winning a lesser cup.

I suppose my view is there are greater riches NOT winning the CL than there are NOT winning the EL because I also think the chances of winning a knock out even lesser is a bif ask of any club. I especially don't think our record of winning lesser stands up to take such risks. For me it's good playground esq what ifs but ultimately IMO you try and finish as high as you can and try your best to.win that you can depending what you end up in.

I think if we had really gone for it, we could and should have gone further in the EL, we had enough cracks at it. Villa have got to the semis of the ECL and currently sit in 4th. They should have course not win the ECL and finish 5th. The furthest we have gone in the Europa is the quarter final in 2007.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think if we had really gone for it, we could and should have gone further in the EL, we had enough cracks at it. Villa have got to the semis of the ECL and currently sit in 4th. They should have course not win the ECL and finish 5th. The furthest we have gone in the Europa is the quarter final in 2007.

Every time we play outside of the CL the club and the players get lazy