American politics

[robp135]

Point of unimportant order - I read it first yesterday. It was the first I had heard of any of this TBH. I do not typically trawl the web looking for these stories.

Well there you go I am also bringing you news you wouldn’t have seen otherwise. It was a fairly mainstream story until it was exposed as false.

Genuine question. Right now, do you think the safety standards in US healthcare/medical system/vaccines are as strong as they used to be? And do you believe, in general, that most vaccine research is done without regard for public safety?

US Healthcare and Medical system safety I personally think are very high. Probably the best in the world and the primary drivers for that are competition and fear of lawsuit

With Vaccines it is not as high as it needs to be and its simple economics because those factors do not exist. Vaccines for children are virtually mandated. The consumer/patient has limited ability to reject vaccination or even choose an alternative to the version their Dr wishes to use if they believe it to be safer. Plus the manufacturer is protected from lawsuits over safety problems. So there is no financial risk from potential harm.

The normal market pressures for safety do not exist in the same way they would for another type of medication or any other product. That of course weakens the incentive to invest as significantly in the highest level of safety measures.

I think anyone who is realistic will be comfortable with the fact that perfection is impossible.

Agreed but those in favour of those system should be the most aggressive in preventing, exposing and prosecuting fraud.

Because the numbers don't match up for me. The cases of adverse reaction (to my eye) are rare.

If you had a wife that still wakes you up after having nightmares about children she vaccinated going in to seizure you may feel differently.

Your question re: big pharma? Did you fully read what I said re: the body, immune systems and degradation of our enviroment? The answer is in there.

I did. I just think it emphasises why there is a greater responsibility for pharma and government officials to provide the highest level of safety and transparency as well as not outright attempting to mislead the public.

Right.
For you this is 'fun' and 'sport' to a degree?
I don't find any of it fun TBH.

You dont fool me for one second Steff.

 

[robp135]

Sadly, this is the capitalist system at it's finest. Just because the companies made huge profits, it does not mean their product was shoddy. I take the perspective it was actualy incredible that they were able to bring something to market so fast which saved so many people's lives/protected vulnerable people. IF I were a conspiracy theorist, of course I'd go for the 'turn the heat up in the club and sell bottled water for a tenner' theory. But thst thinking in this context does not pass any reasonable test for me.

What would YOU have done?

No project, business or industry that depends on government funding can legitimately be classified as capitalist. Of course every real world economy features government spending on infrastructure and research which support private enterprises with profit motive. Which I support as the best method for what it’s worth. But it’s a hybrid system and not true capitalism.

But I would draw the line at taxpayers funding the development of life saving vaccines and then giving up the license to a private enterprise to sell back to the taxpayer at an inflated price.

The cost to develop a vaccine was $2 of which they estimate 80% of the associated cost was taxpayer funded. It was sold back to the US government to administer to its citizens for $15 a shot. Funding the development of life saving vaccines, then giving up the license to a private enterprise, to sell back to the taxpayer at an inflated price. That is where I would draw the line.

The Governments didnt just give pharmaceutical companies the money either. They absorbed the commercial risk, by promising to buy enormous quantities, before it has even been proven the vaccine would be successful.

Moderna did not spend $1 developing their COVID vaccine. The others did absorb part of the costs. But still made out like bandits. Moderna has made over $48B from Covid shots and their total federal income tax payment since that is only $3.6B. It begs the question….what do they spend their money on?

 

[thfcsteff]

No project, business or industry that depends on government funding can legitimately be classified as capitalist. Of course every real world economy features government spending on infrastructure and research which support private enterprises with profit motive. Which I support as the best method for what it’s worth. But it’s a hybrid system and not true capitalism.

But I would draw the line at taxpayers funding the development of life saving vaccines and then giving up the license to a private enterprise to sell back to the taxpayer at an inflated price.

The cost to develop a vaccine was $2 of which they estimate 80% of the associated cost was taxpayer funded. It was sold back to the US government to administer to its citizens for $15 a shot. Funding the development of life saving vaccines, then giving up the license to a private enterprise, to sell back to the taxpayer at an inflated price. That is where I would draw the line.

The Governments didnt just give pharmaceutical companies the money either. They absorbed the commercial risk, by promising to buy enormous quantities, before it has even been proven the vaccine would be successful.

Moderna did not spend $1 developing their COVID vaccine. The others did absorb part of the costs. But still made out like bandits. Moderna has made over $48B from Covid shots and their total federal income tax payment since that is only $3.6B. It begs the question….what do they spend their money on?

I had written a long response involving the topic of Trump's hire for Warp Speed, Slaoui, and further breaking down what I meant by 'capitalist system (yes, just like communism, pure capitalism is an ideal, however the % of your 'hybrid' right now in the west are as dangerously close as we've seen in my lifetime, so excuse the loose language).

But honestly...I'm done. With these long exchanges. I simply don't enjoy them as much as you do.

 

[LutonSpurs]

I’ve not told anyone what to do with their kids.

Nobody said you had. I just think people should ignore you due to your anti science and anti health positions. You know so little on this issue other than the journey the X algo sends you on. It comes across on your posts as it's what ever Elon is pushing you come here and regurgitate it.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

I find it interesting to have challenging conversations. In this instance I found it amusing to see how far someone will go to defend clear wrongdoing. The retort to Whataboutism and insults are fun as well.

What is your motivation to respond?

I said you sound like, not you were, absolute fact, because you did

The whataboutism comes from the fact that although you like to robustly debate you don't treat any two people or subjects the same dependant on who or what the revolve around. You are extremely contrary around subjects.......

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Sadly, this is the capitalist system at it's finest. Just because the companies made huge profits, it does not mean their product was shoddy. I take the perspective it was actualy incredible that they were able to bring something to market so fast which saved so many people's lives/protected vulnerable people. IF I were a conspiracy theorist, of course I'd go for the 'turn the heat up in the club and sell bottled water for a tenner' theory. But thst thinking in this context does not pass any reasonable test for me.

The issue comes that people don't actually think Covid was a thing either (I have no view on Robs stance so I use the wider people). I posted the original video of Italy on here and it was utter chaos when it broke out. There is far too much "I am alright jack" sceptics with a huge dose of recency bias now that its a few years in the rear view.

Genuinely intrigued to how these people act when they go to the Drs, how that plays out, I don't know about others but I trust mine, I don't believe its all one big conspiracy. Yes they are not miracle workers, yes sometimes they misdiagnose and you have to get second opinions, but I tell you now. I trust my Dr and medical science and pharma to make me better when I am ill than I do some bar stall preachers

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

What this bloke does on a global scale is just ridiculous

Dangerous dangerous human