American politics

[robp135]

Point of unimportant order - I read it first yesterday. It was the first I had heard of any of this TBH. I do not typically trawl the web looking for these stories.

Well there you go I am also bringing you news you wouldn’t have seen otherwise. It was a fairly mainstream story until it was exposed as false.

Genuine question. Right now, do you think the safety standards in US healthcare/medical system/vaccines are as strong as they used to be? And do you believe, in general, that most vaccine research is done without regard for public safety?

US Healthcare and Medical system safety I personally think are very high. Probably the best in the world and the primary drivers for that are competition and fear of lawsuit

With Vaccines it is not as high as it needs to be and its simple economics because those factors do not exist. Vaccines for children are virtually mandated. The consumer/patient has limited ability to reject vaccination or even choose an alternative to the version their Dr wishes to use if they believe it to be safer. Plus the manufacturer is protected from lawsuits over safety problems. So there is no financial risk from potential harm.

The normal market pressures for safety do not exist in the same way they would for another type of medication or any other product. That of course weakens the incentive to invest as significantly in the highest level of safety measures.

I think anyone who is realistic will be comfortable with the fact that perfection is impossible.

Agreed but those in favour of those system should be the most aggressive in preventing, exposing and prosecuting fraud.

Because the numbers don't match up for me. The cases of adverse reaction (to my eye) are rare.

If you had a wife that still wakes you up after having nightmares about children she vaccinated going in to seizure you may feel differently.

Your question re: big pharma? Did you fully read what I said re: the body, immune systems and degradation of our enviroment? The answer is in there.

I did. I just think it emphasises why there is a greater responsibility for pharma and government officials to provide the highest level of safety and transparency as well as not outright attempting to mislead the public.

Right.
For you this is 'fun' and 'sport' to a degree?
I don't find any of it fun TBH.

You dont fool me for one second Steff.

 

[robp135]

Sadly, this is the capitalist system at it's finest. Just because the companies made huge profits, it does not mean their product was shoddy. I take the perspective it was actualy incredible that they were able to bring something to market so fast which saved so many people's lives/protected vulnerable people. IF I were a conspiracy theorist, of course I'd go for the 'turn the heat up in the club and sell bottled water for a tenner' theory. But thst thinking in this context does not pass any reasonable test for me.

What would YOU have done?

No project, business or industry that depends on government funding can legitimately be classified as capitalist. Of course every real world economy features government spending on infrastructure and research which support private enterprises with profit motive. Which I support as the best method for what it’s worth. But it’s a hybrid system and not true capitalism.

But I would draw the line at taxpayers funding the development of life saving vaccines and then giving up the license to a private enterprise to sell back to the taxpayer at an inflated price.

The cost to develop a vaccine was $2 of which they estimate 80% of the associated cost was taxpayer funded. It was sold back to the US government to administer to its citizens for $15 a shot. Funding the development of life saving vaccines, then giving up the license to a private enterprise, to sell back to the taxpayer at an inflated price. That is where I would draw the line.

The Governments didnt just give pharmaceutical companies the money either. They absorbed the commercial risk, by promising to buy enormous quantities, before it has even been proven the vaccine would be successful.

Moderna did not spend $1 developing their COVID vaccine. The others did absorb part of the costs. But still made out like bandits. Moderna has made over $48B from Covid shots and their total federal income tax payment since that is only $3.6B. It begs the question….what do they spend their money on?

 

[thfcsteff]

No project, business or industry that depends on government funding can legitimately be classified as capitalist. Of course every real world economy features government spending on infrastructure and research which support private enterprises with profit motive. Which I support as the best method for what it’s worth. But it’s a hybrid system and not true capitalism.

But I would draw the line at taxpayers funding the development of life saving vaccines and then giving up the license to a private enterprise to sell back to the taxpayer at an inflated price.

The cost to develop a vaccine was $2 of which they estimate 80% of the associated cost was taxpayer funded. It was sold back to the US government to administer to its citizens for $15 a shot. Funding the development of life saving vaccines, then giving up the license to a private enterprise, to sell back to the taxpayer at an inflated price. That is where I would draw the line.

The Governments didnt just give pharmaceutical companies the money either. They absorbed the commercial risk, by promising to buy enormous quantities, before it has even been proven the vaccine would be successful.

Moderna did not spend $1 developing their COVID vaccine. The others did absorb part of the costs. But still made out like bandits. Moderna has made over $48B from Covid shots and their total federal income tax payment since that is only $3.6B. It begs the question….what do they spend their money on?

I had written a long response involving the topic of Trump's hire for Warp Speed, Slaoui, and further breaking down what I meant by 'capitalist system (yes, just like communism, pure capitalism is an ideal, however the % of your 'hybrid' right now in the west are as dangerously close as we've seen in my lifetime, so excuse the loose language).

But honestly...I'm done. With these long exchanges. I simply don't enjoy them as much as you do.

 

[LutonSpurs]

I’ve not told anyone what to do with their kids.

Nobody said you had. I just think people should ignore you due to your anti science and anti health positions. You know so little on this issue other than the journey the X algo sends you on. It comes across on your posts as it's what ever Elon is pushing you come here and regurgitate it.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

I find it interesting to have challenging conversations. In this instance I found it amusing to see how far someone will go to defend clear wrongdoing. The retort to Whataboutism and insults are fun as well.

What is your motivation to respond?

I said you sound like, not you were, absolute fact, because you did

The whataboutism comes from the fact that although you like to robustly debate you don't treat any two people or subjects the same dependant on who or what the revolve around. You are extremely contrary around subjects.......

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Sadly, this is the capitalist system at it's finest. Just because the companies made huge profits, it does not mean their product was shoddy. I take the perspective it was actualy incredible that they were able to bring something to market so fast which saved so many people's lives/protected vulnerable people. IF I were a conspiracy theorist, of course I'd go for the 'turn the heat up in the club and sell bottled water for a tenner' theory. But thst thinking in this context does not pass any reasonable test for me.

The issue comes that people don't actually think Covid was a thing either (I have no view on Robs stance so I use the wider people). I posted the original video of Italy on here and it was utter chaos when it broke out. There is far too much "I am alright jack" sceptics with a huge dose of recency bias now that its a few years in the rear view.

Genuinely intrigued to how these people act when they go to the Drs, how that plays out, I don't know about others but I trust mine, I don't believe its all one big conspiracy. Yes they are not miracle workers, yes sometimes they misdiagnose and you have to get second opinions, but I tell you now. I trust my Dr and medical science and pharma to make me better when I am ill than I do some bar stall preachers

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

What this bloke does on a global scale is just ridiculous

Dangerous dangerous human

 

[robp135]

I said you sound like, not you were, absolute fact, because you did

The whataboutism comes from the fact that although you like to robustly debate you don't treat any two people or subjects the same dependant on who or what the revolve around. You are extremely contrary around subjects.......

Marty yesterday you posted an article you hadn’t even read. You are in no position to be critical of how I engage in debate.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Marty yesterday you posted an article you hadn’t even read. You are in no position to be critical of how I engage in debate.

I read it all thanks and I can be critical however I want, especially when there is a proven history on here of you being a hypocrite

 

[robp135]

The issue comes that people don't actually think Covid was a thing either (I have no view on Robs stance so I use the wider people). I posted the original video of Italy on here and it was utter chaos when it broke out. There is far too much "I am alright jack" sceptics with a huge dose of recency bias now that its a few years in the rear view.

What does “don't actually think Covid was a thing either” actually mean? And what percentage of people do you believe think that?

Genuinely intrigued to how these people act when they go to the Drs, how that plays out, I don't know about others but I trust mine, I don't believe its all one big conspiracy. Yes they are not miracle workers, yes sometimes they misdiagnose and you have to get second opinions, but I tell you now. I trust my Dr and medical science and pharma to make me better when I am ill than I do some bar stall preachers

Why do you think the PA Governor made such a big deal of these deaths that were not due to measels (we still have no details about the 2nd death)?

 

[robp135]

I read it all thanks and I can be critical however I want, especially when there is a proven history on here of you being a hypocrite

Every single person on earth can be a hypocrite at times. But what specific examples are you talking about?

If you read the article and then posted a single screenshot of sentance rather than the full article which contradicted that single sentance….that is worse than not reading the article.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Every single person on earth can be a hypocrite at times. But what specific examples are you talking about?

If you read the article and then posted a single screenshot of sentance rather than the full article which contradicted that single sentance….that is worse than not reading the article.

Says the bloke who claims the article misinterpreted the quote of "having measles" without having any proof? I took the quote of them saying they had measles because it was the key point, you get anti bodies when having measles so the following point wasn't relevant to my point, if anything it backed up the quote. But you choose to interpret the way you want without any proof of your own

 

[robp135]

Says the bloke who claims the article misinterpreted the quote of "having measles" without having any proof? I took the quote of them saying they had measles because it was the key point, you get anti bodies when having measles so the following point wasn't relevant to my point, if anything it backed up the quote. But you choose to interpret the way you want without any proof of your own

Id have just admitted to not reading the article if I were you. It’s a better look than this.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Id have just admitted to not reading the article if I were you. It’s a better look than this.

No you just don't like your right wing Maga madness called out.

 

[robp135]

No you just don't like your right wing Maga madness called out.

2 deaths being falsely reported as measels deaths is MAGA madness?

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

2 deaths being falsely reported as measels deaths is MAGA madness?

Your history on here, cucking for RFK and believing that an increase in measles isn't a health concern proves it. As does you getting defensive about Trump whenever healthcare in the US is mentioned

You lying about the number of deaths a year from MMR vaccines def proved, it claiming the deep state was hiding the stats from UK search engines or whatever BS you spouted then (which I reposted yesterday)

 

[robp135]

Your history on here, cucking for RFK and believing that an increase in measles isn't a health concern proves it. As does you getting defensive about Trump whenever healthcare in the US is mentioned

You lying about the number of deaths a year from MMR vaccines def proved, it claiming the deep state was hiding the stats from UK search engines or whatever BS you spouted then (which I reposted yesterday)

Repost here and I will address. I only ever posted figures that came from VAERS.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Per ChatGPT.

Using publicly visible VAERS-derived summaries, MMR vaccines have accumulated about 90,000 total VAERS reports since 1990.

A reasonable approximation from historical VAERS patterns, excluding the unusual COVID-era surge) is:

• 85% non-serious reports
• 15% classified as serious

This includes;

• 5,000+ hospitalizations
• 1,600+ disability reports
• 500+ death reports

Approx 60 children will become permanently disabled of die after receiving an MMR vaccine each year. Thats 20x what you suggested.

Would the number be higher if there were no MMR vaccine? Undoubtedly yes. But that doesn’t mean we shoudnt be trying to figure how to avoid what happens to this 60 families.

This.............

When I asked for a link to the report as it could not actually be found on the VAERS website and reports, specifically around deaths, you claimed it was my search engine "being funded by big Pharma"

So an actual link not a screenshot if you would be so kind

 

[robp135]

This.............

When I asked for a link to the report as it could not actually be found on the VAERS website and reports, specifically around deaths, you claimed it was my search engine "being funded by big Pharma"

So an actual link not a screenshot if you would be so kind

Boarding a flight so will respond when I can.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

What does “don't actually think Covid was a thing either” actually mean? And what percentage of people do you believe think that?

There are people who genuinely think Covid was made up, there are people who don't believe it was more than a common flu and thats just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to theories and nutters on social media.

I think social media during Covid changed the landscape which bred a number of crackpots who now think they are experts and know more about medicine and science than the actual experts and because they can piece together a couple of theories that it some how proves that everyone else are just sheep.

@thfcsteff nailed it earlier and the amount of faith put into someone like RFK is scary, not least because his level of flip flopping should be the kind of thing that anti vax crackpots would usually use to highlight their point. But they don't because their loyalty to the man is more important than their so called strongly held beliefs.