4-4-2

[billyiddo]

Dont you find it strange that a new manager comes in. plays two up top for 6 games, gets decent results and then decides to change it?

It just goes to add grits to my case that we have scored more goals and got better results, when we played two up top. If I accept your statement that we only played 442 for 6 games under TS, then I suspect the results in that period against the dross teams (ie non top 4) will have been as good as at any time over the last couple of seasons.

A 6 game honeymoon period, (mid season at that) is not really the safest of grounds to build an opinion on.

 

[billyiddo]

As far as i remember we were at our best in the first half of 11/12 - playing a lone forward with Bale VdV and Lennon in support and Parker/Modric as the base. Last time we played two up top was Crouch/Defoe - a good attacking side no doubt, personally i prefered the team in 11/12 and reckon we probably scored more with that team.

 

[Nigeyman]

Right guys bit of a rant on the way so please bear with me....

slightly angry because all I have been hearing from talk-sport all day is that Pochettino is complaining about the size of our pitch....like Dembele & AVB last year.....lots of **** taking and spurs are the joke club yet again....please someone tell me poch didnt moan about our pitch size when we persist with inverted wingers! please tell me he didnt say this?

Anyway to the topic in hand 4-4-2....what people need to realise is that you understand your players strengths and their behaviour patterns on the pitch. Its all very well me or Pirate or anyone else saying we should play 2 strikers, forget formations...provided you put out 11 players onto the pitch where their styles and behavioural patterns suit each other then you will strike gold....Redknapp while alot of us guffawed and said tic-tacs grasped this pretty well with his time at our club.

So where are we going wrong???? same thing for a couple of years really:

-to slow in our build up
-inverted wingers cutting inside all the time
-the designated cf...usually ade going walkies and not getting the lone striker role.

Come on people look at our lack of goals!!! a primary school kid could get the managers gig vs spurs if Lambert & keane fancy a dirty weekend away at the weekend!!! All you have to do is:

-make the back 4 as narrow and as compact as possible because we sure as sh** aint offering any width! oh and dont worry even if inverted wingers are clearly not working we will still persist with it rather than offering up any imagination in game and getting the wingers to swap sides.

- get you striker to vacate the space left by our full backs when they inevitably do go forward and have a jolly good time running at our wobbly cb's.

Tottenham remind me of something I saw in Blackadder where Rowan Atkinson unsurprisingly guesses a strategy for us attacking the germans in WW1.....

'does it involve us carrying heavy gear moving at a very slow pace in the mud towards german machine gun positions?'

'how did you know that? thats classified information'

'because its the exact same strategy we have used ten times before'

'precisely Gerry will never expect us to execute the same strategy that we used 10 times before, he will be completely bamboozled!'

You get the point! AVB & Pochettino its just a continuation.......never any imagination! we just carry on doing the same things that dont friggin well work! oh it cant be that we have the mentality of tospots! it must be our pitch is too small!! GIVE ME A FRIGGIN BREAK!

So yes Harry Kane should have started vs Saudi Sportswashing Machine the game would have been over at half time in our favour, Kane is not an out and out striker, he drops deep and likes to link the play! so it doesnt matter if me and pirate call it 4-4-2 or others call it 4-2-3-1 WHAT matters is that his inclusion is the beneficial for our team because he is playing with confidence and scoring goals! not playing after a hat-trick!!!!! LOOK AT YOURSELF POCH FFS!

We have to show some imagination if Plan A is not working! not just give up! I cant believe we have yet another manager who has one fixated style of play and then throws his toys out of the pram when things dont go well! why not think outside the box and try something different???????? hell even FAT SAM HAS REALISED THIS! feckin Pitch size! yeah ok didnt see Bale moaning when he ripped Maicon a new crevice hole.....unbelievable the mentality of our current players and now it seems manager!

Basically we need to be flexible and competant at many styles but while we persist with inverted wingers and a lone striker who tackles himself and wanders around then the goal difference tally is going to make grim f**king reading!

Rant over! Peace out!

 

[milo]

The key is how the number 10 (withdrawn striker in your definition) plays. In my view, at home against the dross, our lone striker looks totally isolated. None of our three are well equipped to play this role. Consquently, we play it up to them and they lose possession (either cos they are ****e as in Ades case, outmuscled as in Harry's case or intimidated as in Solly's case).

If there were two of them to play togther then this would not only occupy the opponents back four to a greater degree but also allow them to pass between themselves in order to allow time for the rest of the midfield to get up to support. At the moment, we dont have anyone running in behind the lead striker, which makes us so easy to play against for a massed defence.

I am still not clear on what you see are the advantages in 4-4-2 as opposed to getting the #10 or one of the inside forwards closer to the #9 in 4-2-3-1.

 

[billyiddo]

Great rant Nigey :lol:

Plenty of stuff which has been countered/answered already but great nonetheless

 

[billyiddo]

I am still not clear on what you see are the advantages in 4-4-2 as opposed to getting the #10 or one of the inside forwards closer to the #9 in 4-2-3-1.

I thought we looked pretty good in the first half against Saudi Sportswashing Machine when Adebayor seemed to be staying central - even bagged himself a goal. So i think for us the key is to get the CF close to the #10 rather than the other way around

 

[indianspur]

Nigey is right about Kane, he should be playing in the PL with either Ade or preferably Soldado. Kane is in in goalscoring form, he has earned the right, it doesn't make any sense him being on the bench week in week out. His under 21 partner Berahino is starting and scoring, honestly what have we got to lose

Any one of Chadli, Eriksen or Lamela can take turns on the bench

 

[DTA]

Played the dreaded 4231 away to Saudi Sportswashing Machine... Don't recall how we set up against Saints but after the initial run of 6 league games we switched backed to one up top and 3 behind iirc - KD knows a good site for checking lineups if you want to check, im on my phone so not able to atm

Not sure if that's true, Ade and kane were playing together as well at the end of the season werent they? And even in the Saudi Sportswashing Machine game where dembele played on the right but not as a winger or inverted winger you could possibly argue that was a variation of a fluid 433/4411

 

[Pirate55]

That is completely **** about ***. We need to get BOTH strikers closer to the goal ffs not further away from it!

Looks like we have the semblence if a 442 tonight, let's see what happens.

 

[billyiddo]

That is completely **** about ***. We need to get BOTH strikers closer to the goal ffs not further away from it!

Looks like we have the semblence if a 442 tonight, let's see what happens.

If that is directed at me then you have missed the point i was making (or i didn't make myself clear) i don't think Ade is staying in the natural forwards position whereas Kane, in the centre of the 3 IS getting forward - so im saying Ade needs to stay in the CF position more (opposed to drifting how he has been so far this season)

Re tonight - clearly not 442. Kane playing in the 3, as usual

 

[milo]

Looks like we have the semblence if a 442 tonight, let's see what happens.

Looks like the same formation that we have played in most of our games this season to me. Well it would be if Brighton weren't sitting back so much that we have ended up playing 0-2-8.

 

[NWND]

I'd like to see Kane and Soldado given a go again with Lamela behind or off the left. Stambouli impressed me in midfield tonight as he has done whenever I've seen him.

Wouldn't mind this at the weekend:

Soldado
Kane

Chadli
Stambouli
Dembele
Lamela

Naughton
Kaboul
Vertonghen
Rose

 

[billyiddo]

Not sure if that's true, Ade and kane were playing together as well at the end of the season werent they? And even in the Saudi Sportswashing Machine game where dembele played on the right but not as a winger or inverted winger you could possibly argue that was a variation of a fluid 433/4411

You may be right re Kane i can't really remember how he was used in the league tbh

Saudi Sportswashing Machine was 4231 though, 433/4411 are close enough to be able to split hairs over it should that be your perogative. But to me, in that game, there was clearly 3 in support of a lone forward. Either way it certainly wasn't 442 :lol:

 

[africanspurs]

wonky

but we will need either lennon or townsend for that

 

[Gutter Boy]

wonky

but we will need either lennon or townsend for that

So you'd purposely sacrifice an effective AM in Chadli, Eriksen, Lamela or Kane for a non-effective one? Take out assists and goals for the sake of a having a recognisable shape?

I'd like to see Kane and Soldado given a go again with Lamela behind or off the left. Stambouli impressed me in midfield tonight as he has done whenever I've seen him.

Wouldn't mind this at the weekend:

Soldado
Kane

Chadli
Stambouli
Dembele
Lamela

Naughton
Kaboul
Vertonghen
Rose

So that's basically the same team as normal (Kane in for Eriksen), but we'd be asking Chadli, Lamela and Kane to stop being fluid and rigidly hold their positions? I don't see how that's going to help us deal with parked buses at all.

And with Chadli and Lamela pinned to the touchlines, that's half our goalscorers away from dangerous positions.

Stambouli vs Capoue at DM is getting closer for me, but no way should Dembele be anywhere near Mason for the regista role.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

So you'd purposely sacrifice an effective AM in Chadli, Eriksen, Lamela or Kane for a non-effective one? Take out assists and goals for the sake of a having a recognisable shape?




So that's basically the same team as normal (Kane in for Eriksen), but we'd be asking Chadli, Lamela and Kane to stop being fluid and rigidly hold their positions? I don't see how that's going to help us deal with parked buses at all.

And with Chadli and Lamela pinned to the touchlines, that's half our goalscorers away from dangerous positions.

Stambouli vs Capoue at DM is getting closer for me, but no way should Dembele be anywhere near Mason for the regista role.

You can talk all day about how fluid they are but clearly there incredibly easy to mark with that fluidity... As seen by their in effectiveness in many games

The difference with the wonky is you actually get Kane in behind a striker (Soldado IMO) with eriksen on the left where he performed so well last year and a player on the right who actually defends too in Lennon.

You the stretch the pitch and have a balance between pace and trickery with a goal threat

Chaldi offers little to no defensive cover and disappears in recent games (although I though he had a good first half vs poocastle) and Lamella needs to learn football basics such as passing and looking up

I know your no fan of Lennon and I'd happily see an alternative but his pace and directness is a threat against lesser sides

 

[Gutter Boy]

You can talk all day about how fluid they are but clearly there incredibly easy to mark with that fluidity... As seen by their in effectiveness in many games

The difference with the wonky is you actually get Kane in behind a striker (Soldado IMO) with eriksen on the left where he performed so well last year and a player on the right who actually defends too in Lennon.

You the stretch the pitch and have a balance between pace and trickery with a goal threat

Chaldi offers little to no defensive cover and disappears in recent games (although I though he had a good first half vs poocastle) and Lamella needs to learn football basics such as passing and looking up

I know your no fan of Lennon and I'd happily see an alternative but his pace and directness is a threat against lesser sides

I just see that our smart attackers (Soldado, Kane, Chadli, Lamela and Eriksen) are being coached to achieve something special - proper synchronised movement and chemistry that will be able to hurt organised defences. It's not quite there (City was close), but is very nearly. Throwing that out the window and going 1980s style of two quick wingers and a big man up top, is just condemning us to years more of ineffective attacking.

With two deep sitting CMs you don't need your wide players to track back as much. Far from being a defensive formation, 4-2-3-1 allows you to have 4 forwards instead of just 2.

I think Lennon is actually least effective against lesser sides, because he has no tools to cope with deep-sitting defences. He's probably most useful against away to the other top 7 sides where his defensive qualities and pace on the break are perhaps more of an asset than Lamela's creativity and goals.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Another issue with 4-4-2 is that we don't have a box-to-box CM to compensate for the wingers being pinned back. We have 2 DMs and 2 ballplayers and Dembele (whatever he is).

We'd actually have to play Paulinho in the Jenas/Parker role to make 4-4-2 work

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I just see that our smart attackers (Soldado, Kane, Chadli, Lamela and Eriksen) are being coached to achieve something special - proper synchronised movement and chemistry that will be able to hurt organised defences. It's not quite there (City was close), but is very nearly. Throwing that out the window and going 1980s style of two quick wingers and a big man up top, is just condemning us to years more of ineffective attacking.

With two deep sitting CMs you don't need your wide players to track back as much. Far from being a defensive formation, 4-2-3-1 allows you to have 4 forwards instead of just 2.

I think Lennon is actually least effective against lesser sides, because he has no tools to cope with deep-sitting defences. He's probably most useful against away to the other top 7 sides where his defensive qualities and pace on the break are perhaps more of an asset than Lamela's creativity and goals.

I don't see Lamella creating much soon until he understand the basics and it's so ething I don't see him getting quickly

I'm all for progress but I don't think we have the players for the system Poch is playing as we lack guile and a striker who is capable (despite their history) of playing one up top in this league

I've not said anything about two quick wingers (although it never hurt with bale and Lennon) and a big man (although I am saying bring in Kane)

What im saying is what is wring with having a mix of intelligent footballers and some raw pace. We currently look more one dimensional than ever and our attacking 3 can't play with their back to goal and offer no pace. Mix it up a bit and get some alternatives in there and im convinced we will be more creative.

Don't you believe that. Chadli, eriksen and Lamella are all very similar??? There all number 10s as Poch describes whoever so far none have been that effective consistently

Regrading your other post, I'd like to see Stambouli and Mason now and see how that works personally.

 

[africanspurs]

So you'd purposely sacrifice an effective AM in Chadli, Eriksen, Lamela or Kane for a non-effective one? Take out assists and goals for the sake of a having a recognisable shape?




So that's basically the same team as normal (Kane in for Eriksen), but we'd be asking Chadli, Lamela and Kane to stop being fluid and rigidly hold their positions? I don't see how that's going to help us deal with parked buses at all.

And with Chadli and Lamela pinned to the touchlines, that's half our goalscorers away from dangerous positions.

Stambouli vs Capoue at DM is getting closer for me, but no way should Dembele be anywhere near Mason for the regista role.

you do realise that aside from maybe erisken , none of the guys you mention actually play a true AM position? so no i am not doing that...i am changing formation and system...and in that formation / system i need one player that can truly stretch the opposition and push the back line further back to bring the midfield further forward...overrun the opposition with bodies ...and have 2,3 or even 4 people in the box during deliveries

You sound like one of those guys that force players into a shape or system purely based on their talent and not necessarily what the game/ match/ situation requires