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20 years....it's just unacceptable

Yeah that's why i edited my post o_O

Our form was actually better in the second half of AVBs first season which is why i think it's harsh to say we fudgeed it up that year - can see where you're coming from though

Granted, but we faltered just as Arsenal conveniently went on a good run, just like the year before. Albeit, not to the same extent as the previous season.
 
We missed the boat with the advent of the PL. Simple as that. Arsenal took full advantage of that, we didn't. The overwhelming majority of my Spurs-supporting existence has been under an ENIC regime, but I can't truthfully say that they're the biggest reason for our decline relative to Arsenal: the blame for that lies with Scholar, Sugar, and the concurrent, admittedly exemplary (and possibly thoroughly underhanded) stewardship of David Dein over at Highbury.

Until we find our equivalent to Wenger, and equally importantly, our equivalent to Dein, we won't be able to rectify our recent past when it comes to L'Arse. Levy absolutely is not our Dein, and I don't know if Poch can live up to the task of doing with us with Wenger did with them.
 
We missed the boat with the advent of the PL. Simple as that. Arsenal took full advantage of that, we didn't. The overwhelming majority of my Spurs-supporting existence has been under an ENIC regime, but I can't truthfully say that they're the biggest reason for our decline relative to Arsenal: the blame for that lies with Scholar, Sugar, and the concurrent, admittedly exemplary (and possibly thoroughly underhanded) stewardship of David Dein over at Highbury.

Until we find our equivalent to Wenger, and equally importantly, our equivalent to Dein, we won't be able to rectify our recent past when it comes to L'Arse. Levy absolutely is not our Dein, and I don't know if Poch can live up to the task of doing with us with Wenger did with them.

i'm generally in the boat of people who agree with this theory. however, im not even sure i would place too much blame on the likes of sugar. he did his best, and compared to how other clubs were being run, i dont think we were being run that poorly at all. its just unfortunate that we missed the "boat". having said that though, i dont think our overall happiness as fans would be that much greater anyway if we had been in arsenal's shoes. fans of both clubs are in are perennially "suffering". with the likes of abramovic and mansour coming in, we wouldn't have won much anyway.

arsenal were lucky to do well when the prem exploaded, and are benefitting from that. but from a fans point of view, their fans are not that much better off than us imo. only the owners of arsenal have really beneffited, by being able to sell their shares for high prices. their fans get to watch championsleague football too, but other than that, our chances of winning things isnt that much worse than arsenals imo.

the team who have really shot themselves in the foot over the past couple of decades is liverpool.
 
Yeah that's why i edited my post o_O

Our form was actually better in the second half of AVBs first season which is why i think it's harsh to say we fudgeed it up that year - can see where you're coming from though

Exactly. Not sure how people can blame AVB. Yes, we did throw away a 7-point lead to finish behind Arsenal in 2013. But it was largely because Arsenal went on a brilliant run at the end of the season. We did finish with a record league points that season. Also, remember AVB was the head coach with limited powers for only 1 full season. In contrast, Redknapp was the manager with full powers for 4 years.

I blame Levy and Redknapp more than anyone. Afterall, Levy has appointed and sacked the managers with wrong timings. He should not have appointed AVB in the first place after his failures with Chelsea. And then he should have given more time to AVB after spending 100m on 7 new players.
 
And then, if I may add............To sack a Spurs legend rather than back him with quality defenders . We replace him with Gerry 'Pullis' Francis and give him 20mill to spunk it on the likes of Rual Fox , Chris Armstrong , Ramon Vega , Les Ferdinand.
Very dark days those, and part of the reason I can never quite get as angry as I did then (well, that and being older!)...
 
All it means is that Ardiles was a GHod awful manager and put together the most unbalanced squad we've ever had and Sugar equally as stupid for paying inflated prices for the dross his managers asked for.

Francis could have done well with someone else targeting players to sign. He just went for mid-table consolidation quality.

Not true mate.
In fact, our position when he was tin-tacked was false. GF got those 6 point back and suddenly we were in the top 7 or 8 again...I don't say Ossie was Mourinho, but he deserved time and investment IMO. Klinsmann, Barmy and Sheringham were FANTASTIC to watch! We did need better defenders.
 
For much of that period, Arsenal were second or third highest wage earners, while we were lower than sixth. Teams like Leeds, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Villa, Portsmouth and West Ham overspent and nearly all suffered the consequences.
Don't forget Spurs suffered from THEIR overspending. Whilst Saudi Sportswashing Machine Chelsea Leeds Blackburn etc overspent it kept Spurs out of the Champions League places and off the Sky News bulletins. Bas.tards.
 
Exactly. Not sure how people can blame AVB. Yes, we did throw away a 7-point lead to finish behind Arsenal in 2013. But it was largely because Arsenal went on a brilliant run at the end of the season. We did finish with a record league points that season. Also, remember AVB was the head coach with limited powers for only 1 full season. In contrast, Redknapp was the manager with full powers for 4 years.

I blame Levy and Redknapp more than anyone. Afterall, Levy has appointed and sacked the managers with wrong timings. He should not have appointed AVB in the first place after his failures with Chelsea. And then he should have given more time to AVB after spending 100m on 7 new players.
Avb and Redknapp should both shoulder some of the blame it would be disingenuous of either set of supporters to say otherwise. Redknapp failed to get champions league football with arguably the best Tottenham side I have seen since the 87 team. He failed because he was too busy whoring himself for the England job. Avb for being part of a numbskull transfer committee that blew 100 million. I am certain he would have had the final say on those players even if they were not his first choice. Let's face it he wanted to leave when it went fits up.
 
We missed the boat with the advent of the PL. Simple as that. Arsenal took full advantage of that, we didn't. The overwhelming majority of my Spurs-supporting existence has been under an ENIC regime, but I can't truthfully say that they're the biggest reason for our decline relative to Arsenal: the blame for that lies with Scholar, Sugar, and the concurrent, admittedly exemplary (and possibly thoroughly underhanded) stewardship of David Dein over at Highbury.

Until we find our equivalent to Wenger, and equally importantly, our equivalent to Dein, we won't be able to rectify our recent past when it comes to L'Arse. Levy absolutely is not our Dein, and I don't know if Poch can live up to the task of doing with us with Wenger did with them.

Agreed. A lot of coincidences involved with them getting success at the time money was starting to flood in to the top teams.

They did well with that money though you'd have to say. Building the stadium, plenty of excellent transfer deals and success on the pitch.

Exactly. Not sure how people can blame AVB. Yes, we did throw away a 7-point lead to finish behind Arsenal in 2013. But it was largely because Arsenal went on a brilliant run at the end of the season. We did finish with a record league points that season. Also, remember AVB was the head coach with limited powers for only 1 full season. In contrast, Redknapp was the manager with full powers for 4 years.

I blame Levy and Redknapp more than anyone. Afterall, Levy has appointed and sacked the managers with wrong timings. He should not have appointed AVB in the first place after his failures with Chelsea. And then he should have given more time to AVB after spending 100m on 7 new players.

Levy took over in February 2001. That season we finished 12th, 21 points behind Arsenal. The season before we finished 10th, 20 points behind Arsenal. At the time Levy took over Arsenal were well into their stadium project. The decade leading up to Levy taking over had seen us finishing 7th as our best league finish.

There have been mistakes along the way, no doubt. But Levy deserves a huge amount of credit for closing the gap to the extent he has and to getting us to where a 6th place finish in the league (where we financially "belong") is seen as a bit of a disappointment at best.
 
Exactly. Not sure how people can blame AVB. Yes, we did throw away a 7-point lead to finish behind Arsenal in 2013. But it was largely because Arsenal went on a brilliant run at the end of the season. We did finish with a record league points that season. Also, remember AVB was the head coach with limited powers for only 1 full season. In contrast, Redknapp was the manager with full powers for 4 years.

I blame Levy and Redknapp more than anyone. Afterall, Levy has appointed and sacked the managers with wrong timings. He should not have appointed AVB in the first place after his failures with Chelsea. And then he should have given more time to AVB after spending 100m on 7 new players.

But their run would also had more significance because we lost vital games around the same time, immediately after beating them, which should have given us the confidence and momentum to finally finish above them.
 
Agreed. A lot of coincidences involved with them getting success at the time money was starting to flood in to the top teams.

They did well with that money though you'd have to say. Building the stadium, plenty of excellent transfer deals and success on the pitch.

Yes, they spent very well, and used their connections at the top table brilliantly (I don't think it's a coincidence that Dein became vice-president of the FA, president of the G14 and then the international ambassador of the UK 2018 WC bid). We've never had a chairman as visionary and well-connected as Dein: until we get one, we have to rely on our managers to pick up the slack and coax brilliant on-pitch performances out of a team built in inefficiently optimized external conditions.

i'm generally in the boat of people who agree with this theory. however, im not even sure i would place too much blame on the likes of sugar. he did his best, and compared to how other clubs were being run, i dont think we were being run that poorly at all. its just unfortunate that we missed the "boat". having said that though, i dont think our overall happiness as fans would be that much greater anyway if we had been in arsenal's shoes. fans of both clubs are in are perennially "suffering". with the likes of abramovic and mansour coming in, we wouldn't have won much anyway.

arsenal were lucky to do well when the prem exploaded, and are benefitting from that. but from a fans point of view, their fans are not that much better off than us imo. only the owners of arsenal have really beneffited, by being able to sell their shares for high prices. their fans get to watch championsleague football too, but other than that, our chances of winning things isnt that much worse than arsenals imo.

the team who have really shot themselves in the foot over the past couple of decades is liverpool.

Sugar's views on foreign players (just as they were starting to become established in the top flight, and were still cheap and miles better than their English counterparts) definitely set us back, imo.

As for whether we as fans would have been better off if we'd succeeded instead of Arsenal...I dunno. I'd have liked to see us considered part of the elite of Europe, and would have liked to have retained the 'entertainers' tag that Arsenal stole off of us as part of their rise. I would have liked to have avoided the St.Totteringham's Day nonsense, although admittedly the Goons at my local are generally the give-and-take crowd, so I don't have too much trouble with that. :p

Overall, with the whole idea of clubs as revenue generators and viable investments for wealthy oligarchs and currency speculators alike that's seeped into the game over the last couple of decades, we as fans don't have much control or genuine ownership of the clubs we support in any real way anymore. So it's only the little things that matter, and our interactions with our fellow fans. Those could have turned out differently if we'd been in their place, is all. :)
 
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Come on Dubai - Levy in charge of a Spurs team in a similar position to Arsenal at the birth of CL mega money would have seen us grow exponentially - if there's one thing he can't be accused of is not improving us off the field to our maximum
 
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Come on Dubai - Levy in charge of a Spurs team in a similar position to Arsenal at the birth of CL mega money would have seen us grow exponentially

Nah. We would have done a lot, lot better than we ended up doing under Scholar and Sugar: of that I am absolutely convinced. But would we have succeeded as Arsenal did? Probably not. One of the reasons Arsenal were able to grow their global brand, commercial revenue and reputation so quickly is that Dein used his connections to drag that club into the limelight post-Graham: again, I don't think it's a coincidence that that man has occupied so many of football's top posts, both in England and internationally, over the last decade or so. I also think that Dein employed some underhanded tactics to aid that rise, but that's less certain. But the point is, Dein had connections and influence in football that Levy just doesn't seem to have, even after a decade and a half spent at the helm of a fairly prestigious club in England's top flight. So I don't think we'd have risen as quickly as Arsenal did, even with Levy at the helm.

Plus, Dein took a risk on employing an unknown manager with quirky ideas about fitness and football who had just spent a year in the footballing wilderness of Japan, and then took a further risk in backing him with all the players he asked for. Never in a million years would Levy be so eager to take risks like that.
 
Levy not taking risks with managers? Jol? AVB? Pochettino? Spending the best part of a couple of seasons working/researching the then alien concept of a DoF structure whilst everyone in the game told him he was a lunatic? C'mon man....

Arsenal never spent more than they made (as a club) over this whole period so i see no reason to think Levy, who employs a similarly frugle approach, wouldn't have backed his managers/DoFs to the same degree - especially when it's exactly the transfer approach he favors (young/under valued players with high potential)
 
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Nah. We would have done a lot, lot better than we ended up doing under Scholar and Sugar: of that I am absolutely convinced. But would we have succeeded as Arsenal did? Probably not. One of the reasons Arsenal were able to grow their global brand, commercial revenue and reputation so quickly is that Dein used his connections to drag that club into the limelight post-Graham: again, I don't think it's a coincidence that that man has occupied so many of football's top posts, both in England and internationally, over the last decade or so. I also think that Dein employed some underhanded tactics to aid that rise, but that's less certain. But the point is, Dein had connections and influence in football that Levy just doesn't seem to have, even after a decade and a half spent at the helm of a fairly prestigious club in England's top flight. So I don't think we'd have risen as quickly as Arsenal did, even with Levy at the helm.

Plus, Dein took a risk on employing an unknown manager with quirky ideas about fitness and football who had just spent a year in the footballing wilderness of Japan, and then took a further risk in backing him with all the players he asked for. Never in a million years would Levy be so eager to take risks like that.

Honestly Dein seemed to have a bit of a shady character side to him, the FA and lots of things went in the Scum's favour during his tenure, not sure that could (or want to) be replicated by us

To the other posts re AVB/Harry whatever .. time had passed, we might have got one more CL run, but look at Pool, a WC player on the form of his life may get you the occasional CL spot, but the usual suspects will just go back the following year and spend 200M+ and reset order ..
 
I really struggle to see how a lack of financial growth can be aimed as a criticism at Levy whilst Dein and Arsenal are held up as the ideal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deloitte_Football_Money_League#2001.E2.80.9302

The first year the Deloitte money league was extended to 20 clubs was in 04/05. We were 13th with a income of €104.5m, Arsenal were 10th with €171.3m

Last season Deloitte has us 13th with €215.8m, Arsenal 8th with €359.3m

Both clubs have done just a little bit better than doubling their revenues. Difference being that in that time period Arsenal actually completed their stadium project whilst we only started ours. Arsenal have of course been ever presents in the CL, we unfortunately stand with just the one season.

Them doing well, yes. Significantly better than us... Can't see it. As usual when talking about Levy I assume Dubai is not going to care much about numbers and other forms of evidence and rather stick to anecdotes about "connections in the footballing world" to support his opinion.
 
I really struggle to see how a lack of financial growth can be aimed as a criticism at Levy whilst Dein and Arsenal are held up as the ideal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deloitte_Football_Money_League#2001.E2.80.9302

The first year the Deloitte money league was extended to 20 clubs was in 04/05. We were 13th with a income of €104.5m, Arsenal were 10th with €171.3m

Last season Deloitte has us 13th with €215.8m, Arsenal 8th with €359.3m

Both clubs have done just a little bit better than doubling their revenues. Difference being that in that time period Arsenal actually completed their stadium project whilst we only started ours. Arsenal have of course been ever presents in the CL, we unfortunately stand with just the one season.

Them doing well, yes. Significantly better than us... Can't see it. As usual when talking about Levy I assume Dubai is not going to care much about numbers and other forms of evidence and rather stick to anecdotes about "connections in the footballing world" to support his opinion.

"The importance of TV money to Tottenham’s revenue growth is clear: 83% (£55 million) of the £66 million increase since 2008 from £115 million to £181 million has come from broadcasting. In the same period, commercial income rose only £8 million from £34 million to £42 million, while match day income grew by just £4 million from £40 million to £44 million." - Swiss Ramble, http://swissramble.blogspot.ca/2015/04/tottenham-hotspur-bottom-line.html

In that respect, Arsenal rode the wave too, so it's telling that the period from 04/05 to 14/15 sees us growing in parallel, more or less. Where we have lagged behind has been in things the directors have more direct control over, like commercial revenue, where, at least when it comes to the top six, "...Since 2009 Tottenham have the lowest growth, both in absolute and percentage terms, with an increase of only £19 million to £42 million. As a painful comparative, in the same period Arsenal have grown by £29 million to £77 million (excluding the new Puma deal which started in July 2014) – and that’s nothing compared to Emirates Marketing Project £148 million, Manchester United £119 million, Chelsea £56 million and Liverpool £44 million."

In contrast to this, Arsenal were nowhere on the financial scene in 1997-1998, according to the Deloitte Money League for that year: the top ten included four English clubs (United, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Chelsea and Liverpool in that order) with the lowest one of those rounding out the top ten list with 45 million pounds, which by extension indicates that Arsenal were earning less than that at the time. Just four years later, in 2001-2002, Arsenal's revenue was measured at 141.2 million euros, putting them eighth in the Money League, with their accounts from 2002-2003 revealing a commercial income of 22 million pounds, bettered only by United and Chelsea: commercial revenue that increased year on year from that point on until they moved into the new stadium. How much of that is down to their success, and how much of that is down to Dein is an open question, but given that he was described as the driving force behind both the foundation of the Premier League itself and its monetization / marketing/ commercial expansion (Highbury: The Story of Arsenal Stadium is a book that goes into detail about Dein's connections and near single-handed advancement of the Premier League onto the world stage through the use of said connections, and is available on Google Reader if you don't want to soil your fingers by actually touching it :p )....I'd say it's safe to assume that he had an awful lot to do with it.

Levy riding of extremely high ticket prices and bloating TV revenues to stay roughly 150 million euros behind them in revenues doesn't compare to the catapulting of Arsenal into the financial elite that Dein managed to pull off: now, how much of that is down to on-field success versus Dein's management is open to question... but Dein was the one who hired Wenger, a man who had as mentioned before spent a year in the backwater of Japan and who had previously called out his own chairman on what he felt was corruption. And Dein was the one who then backed him when it came to buying the players he wanted, and bringing in the coaches he wanted, and the training facilities and regimens he wanted. Again, I cannot see Levy ever hiring a manager as ready to call out his chairman as Wenger was perceived as being when Dein hired him, or backing that manager with all the things he asked for without a murmur. So, overall, I'd suggest that again, Levy /= Dein, in that regard.

(P.S: and hey, when it comes to numbers, I always mention that we're the lowest spenders on transfer fees over the last five seasons with a 21 million pound profit overall, and that we've just accrued a 65 million pound profit while telling Poch to f*ck off and make do with Stambouli, Fazio, Davies and Vorm. If I remember correctly, you're the one who sees more fit to preface those statements with 'b-but unlisted agent's fees!' and the like. :p )
 
Levy not taking risks with managers? Jol? AVB? Pochettino? Spending the best part of a couple of seasons working/researching the then alien concept of a DoF structure whilst everyone in the game told him he was a lunatic? C'mon man....

Arsenal never spent more than they made (as a club) over this whole period so i see no reason to think Levy, who employs a similarly frugle approach, wouldn't have backed his managers/DoFs to the same degree - especially when it's exactly the transfer approach he favors (young/under valued players with high potential)

See above. Wenger was a man who had publicly called out his own chairman on what he saw as corruption and fixing, and had subsequently left for the at the time unknown footballing destination of Japan in disgust. I cannot imagine Levy hiring a coach like that, especially if that coach came with demands that meant revolutionizing training, tactics and recruitment across the entire goddamn league, not just at the club itself. As for the managers you mentioned...

Jol - I think he won the Dutch coach of the year award twice or thrice before even becoming our assistant manager, if I remember correctly. Certainly I saw him as high-profile at the time, although I was only in my early teens then.
AVB - managed in the Premier League, won everything with Porto, was perhaps the first genuinely 'top-tier' manager we employed in the modern era, in my opinion.
Pochettino - again, managed in the Prem, got S'oton to 8th, and is perhaps as low-risk as you can get: evidently he doesn't complain when he's slapped across the face by the footballing equivalent of a cold fish when it comes to transfers, i.e, 'use the damn youth/bargain bins and leave me alone'. :p

Overall, I stick by what I said: we'd probably have done far better under Levy than we did under Scholar and Sugar in the 90's. But that doesn't mean we'd have done what Arsenal did: Levy, imv, isn't that type of revolutionary chairman.
 
"The importance of TV money to Tottenham’s revenue growth is clear: 83% (£55 million) of the £66 million increase since 2008 from £115 million to £181 million has come from broadcasting. In the same period, commercial income rose only £8 million from £34 million to £42 million, while match day income grew by just £4 million from £40 million to £44 million." - Swiss Ramble, http://swissramble.blogspot.ca/2015/04/tottenham-hotspur-bottom-line.html

In that respect, Arsenal rode the wave too, so it's telling that the period from 04/05 to 14/15 sees us growing in parallel, more or less. Where we have lagged behind has been in things the directors have more direct control over, like commercial revenue, where, at least when it comes to the top six, "...Since 2009 Tottenham have the lowest growth, both in absolute and percentage terms, with an increase of only £19 million to £42 million. As a painful comparative, in the same period Arsenal have grown by £29 million to £77 million (excluding the new Puma deal which started in July 2014) – and that’s nothing compared to Emirates Marketing Project £148 million, Manchester United £119 million, Chelsea £56 million and Liverpool £44 million."

In contrast to this, Arsenal were nowhere on the financial scene in 1997-1998, according to the Deloitte Money League for that year: the top ten included four English clubs (United, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Chelsea and Liverpool in that order) with the lowest one of those rounding out the top ten list with 45 million pounds, which by extension indicates that Arsenal were earning less than that at the time. Just four years later, in 2001-2002, Arsenal's revenue was measured at 141.2 million euros, putting them eighth in the Money League, with their accounts from 2002-2003 revealing a commercial income of 22 million pounds, bettered only by United and Chelsea: commercial revenue that increased year on year from that point on until they moved into the new stadium. How much of that is down to their success, and how much of that is down to Dein is an open question, but given that he was described as the driving force behind both the foundation of the Premier League itself and its monetization / marketing/ commercial expansion (Highbury: The Story of Arsenal Stadium is a book that goes into detail about Dein's connections and near single-handed advancement of the Premier League onto the world stage through the use of said connections, and is available on Google Reader if you don't want to soil your fingers by actually touching it :p )....I'd say it's safe to assume that he had an awful lot to do with it.

Levy riding of extremely high ticket prices and bloating TV revenues to stay roughly 150 million euros behind them in revenues doesn't compare to the catapulting of Arsenal into the financial elite that Dein managed to pull off: now, how much of that is down to on-field success versus Dein's management is open to question... but Dein was the one who hired Wenger, a man who had as mentioned before spent a year in the backwater of Japan and who had previously called out his own chairman on what he felt was corruption. And Dein was the one who then backed him when it came to buying the players he wanted, and bringing in the coaches he wanted, and the training facilities and regimens he wanted. Again, I cannot see Levy ever hiring a manager as ready to call out his chairman as Wenger was perceived as being when Dein hired him, or backing that manager with all the things he asked for without a murmur. So, overall, I'd suggest that again, Levy /= Dein, in that regard.

(P.S: and hey, when it comes to numbers, I always mention that we're the lowest spenders on transfer fees over the last five seasons with a 21 million pound profit overall, and that we've just accrued a 65 million pound profit while telling Poch to f*ck off and make do with Stambouli, Fazio, Davies and Vorm. If I remember correctly, you're the one who sees more fit to preface those statements with 'b-but unlisted agent's fees!' and the like. :p )

It's really not a surprise that we've had the lowest growth out of the "top 6" considering CL participation is it?

The 97/98 numbers you refer to are no big surprise. Considering Arsenal weren't in the CL that season, and were even knocked out of the UEFA cup in the first round...
 
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