Thomas Frank - Head Coach

Bedfordspurs said:

But he did start well
With a small squad
Having lost the best player he had
He got us 5th

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Look at it another way, Thomas Frank has lost the 3 players who together were supposed to assist with the goals that we lost because of Kane leaving. We've also lost Son who was vital to the way we played in those 1st 10 games. TF has then had to shoehorn 3 entirely new players into those positions 2 of whom have not played in the PL before.. The three players we've lost and Ange had at his disposal were not as good as Kane and peak Son, of course, but nevertheless were all Premier League seasoned players.

Sorry Mikey saw your post after I had posted mine. The bit about TF having to immediately negotiate European football is really important yet I keep forgetting to mention it.

Bedfordspurs said:

But he did start well
With a small squad
Having lost the best player he had
He got us 5th

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I'm talking about the last year and the reason why people are not bothering.

Robspur12 said:

You can say this until you are blue in the face it won't matter. There is a strong correlation between those who felt that Ange should have been given more time and those who are now criticising TF most strongly. It's not everyone in that group of course.

I keep reading that the squad is better than last season and that just makes me shake my head in disbelief. It would be if Deki, Madders and Solanke were starting regularly alongside those brought in. But the long term injuries might as well have been transferred out of the club. It's been the same effect so far this season. I can't understand why that is not obvious.

You can see the nervousness in the players manifesting itself in so many individual mistakes that are costing us goals. And when these are punished the players naturally become more risk averse. It's so predictable, and I don't think we are currently executing TF's preferred style. I think there are deeper reasons for the way we are playing. And the more players are booed the more nervous they will be in possession, especially at home. This is a manager that has developed so many attack minded players, players who were then sold for big fees to other clubs.

TF will take responsibility for our results. But I am sure, as well as managing our injuries pretty well, he is also trying to build the confidence of players.

I am confident TF will get this right. But he needs time. We change managers now and the new manager has exactly the same issues to resolve. Just my opinion of course.

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It's very transparent. I don't think they realise how much so, nonetheless it's understandable from their POV. Why sack their guy to bring in an underwhelming candidate who still loses at home and still plays boring football.

Bishop said:

It's very transparent. I don't think they realise how much so, nonetheless it's understandable from their POV. Why sack their guy to bring in an underwhelming candidate who still loses at home and still plays boring football.

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Yes. I think if we are being brutally honest, it;s a reflection of how the ownership have driven down our appeal over the last decade. Even the hiring of Ange after Conte could be seen in the same light (though, of course, we'd all be forever grateful we got that EL win last May)

I stopped going last season (season ticket), have not been to the last 4 home games either.

That's not on Frank solely, as I've said before the performances now are not any worse then they have been for the last 18 months. The stats back this up by any metric you care to use, (interestingly people who were saying Ange couldn't be judged because of injuries are happy to judge Frank. Personally I'd rather play reserves in defence then have my 3 most useful attacking players out).

We've been useless at home for a good 18 months.

fernadez said:

I stopped going last season (season ticket), have not been to the last 4 home games either.

That's not on Frank solely, as I've said before the performances now are not any worse then they have been for the last 18 months. The stats back this up by any metric you care to use, (interestingly people who were saying Ange couldn't be judged because of injuries are happy to judge Frank. Personally I'd rather play reserves in defence then have my 3 most useful attacking players out).

We've been useless at home for a good 18 months.

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Sometimes with the posts on here I wonder if I was watching a different club last season. I missed all the really good football we played.

Robspur12 said:

Look at it another way, Thomas Frank has lost the 3 players who together were supposed to assist with the goals that we lost because of Kane leaving. We've also lost Son who was vital to the way we played in those 1st 10 games. TF has then had to shoehorn 3 entirely new players into those positions 2 of whom have not played in the PL before.. The three players we've lost and Ange had at his disposal were not as good as Kane and peak Son, of course, but nevertheless were all Premier League seasoned players.

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Get that and son did play really well in those ten games
Good job we have lost our top scorer from last season too
We’re actually scoring at an ok rate with only 6 teams scoring more than us
But we’re actually conceding more goals now than we did at this point last year when we were missing some key players

glorygloryeze said:

Yes. I think if we are being brutally honest, it;s a reflection of how the ownership have driven down our appeal over the last decade. Even the hiring of Ange after Conte could be seen in the same light (though, of course, we'd all be forever grateful we got that EL win last May)

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Yep
It’s scatter gun approaches and changes in managed
Personally it’s nothing to do with Ange and everything to do with what I see every week
I did say that we should sack Ange last season. Finishing 17th isn’t acceptable. But his counter argument would be the target was CL and he achieved that
I also said i liked Frank and wanted him. I thought he would be a good guy
Clearly I’m a fudgetard who can’t judge managers for toffee
What I can see … on the pitch is what really matters. As much as we always need better players if people think we’re seeing the best of what we have then hey…. And the missing players need to be miracle workers when they return after missing 70% of the season to drag us up it seems. Better hope we don’t lose any others in the mean time I guess as the huge squad clearly ain’t big enough

Bishop said:

It's very transparent. I don't think they realise how much so, nonetheless it's understandable from their POV. Why sack their guy to bring in an underwhelming candidate who still loses at home and still plays boring football. of us believed that Ange was finished and had to go but still be totally underwhelmed by Frank’s appointment and our performances both before and since.

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It’s doesn’t have to be one side vs the other. Some of us might agree that Ange had to go but still be totally underwhelmed by Frank’s appointment and unhappy with the dreadful stuff served up so far.

Bishop said:

Starting for Brazil isn't the flex you think it is. Have you actually looked at their squad of available talents? They have NO quality strikers, to many people like yourself think of classic Brazil when you say their name, they are faaaaar from that. They are bloody 5th in the World Cup Qualifiers FFS. Before the WC expansion they wouldn't even be qualifying automatically this year, they would have to go play the international playoff. Richy starting occasionally and it is occasionally these days for Brazil means the grand total of fudge all in 2025. It's no indicator of any sort of quality or ability.

I think in general terms a different coach could get us playing more progressively, that part I don't disagree with. But at the heart of it all, I don't believe that solves the problem. I think, sure play more progressively, play more openly by all means but the results will still be disappointing because this is a frankly average side and squad. Just think back to 2015-2017 who of the current squad gets in any of those starting 11s? The only argument is Kudus in place of Lamela, the rest of the squad wouldn't even get near.

This is an average squad and an average squad with an average manager will get average results. Now maybe if we had a great manager he could indeed get them to overperform as Poch did but I just don't think that's an intelligent approach to take. To keep firing managers, constantly shifting through searching for the one true Messiah who is able to significantly get the players to over perform their standard abilities. Instead we actually need to improve the quality of the team, then we can look at what the coach is or isn't able to achieve imo.

The quality of the players you have will always have a more direct impact on your long term results than the man in charge.

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Brazil not being quite as good doesn’t change my overall point. I’m not saying he’s prime Ronaldo. I’m just saying he starts for his country.

Anyway. I just massively disagree with this idea that the players aren’t good enough, and because of that I think you and I are coming at Frank from very different angles. I think the squad has good pedigree and is at the beginning of a coaching cycle, and in a couple-few months is going to start executing what Frank wants better, with more consistency. The players won’t suddenly have become so much better than they are, they will simply be further along in what Frank wants.

You seem to be saying that the players aren’t very good and Frank has no other choice but to play this way. I just flat out disagree. I don’t think games like the Chelsea home game were what Frank wanted. It was just a diabolical performance in possession. Out of sync, and lots of misunderstandings about what to do when.

I’m not even advocating for sacking Frank, I’m trying to articulate a vision for what I think he is trying to achieve. And I do think that there’s a good chance the second half of the season is going to see these supposedly average, lower mid table players put more consistent results together. Not because they all suddenly improved, but because they’re further along in their coaching cycle. I don’t think the players are average, unless also every national team coach and selection system is getting it wrong too.

ricky2tricky4city said:

Predicting where the quality of a squad fits in table wise is a mugs game this season.
Positions 3rd-17th are as fluid as it's ever been.

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Sure, and I’m not making a prediction. I’m saying I think in terms of pedigree it is at a bare minimum the 8th best squad. It could well be higher.

ricky2tricky4city said:

Er....that's the only position, right? with a large majority of (any) fans?

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Some managers articulating a vision that the fans will get behind buy themselves more time. And I think managers that emphasise solidity over style are especially required to get results. Otherwise what is the trade off for the relative drabness we sit through?

This is where I think some people feel Frank is being disingenuous. Because Frank says if you don’t take risks you take a risk. But then I hear Danso yesterday saying the philosophy is ‘defence wins leagues, goals win games’ (paraphrasing). So again it’s all not consistent.

And I think actually the truth is in the middle. Which is why I’ve been arguing that Frank’s philosophy is about doing things well in the right moments. I just don’t think he’s articulated it well enough to get broader guy in. When results aren’t there even pretty well educated on football Spurs fans can’t see what he’s trying to achieve.

braineclipse said:

So half a season is too short of a time to expect an identity. At what point is it reasonable to expect an identity to become clear? Two thirds of a season? Three quarters? A full season? More?

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Context matters of course. Step into a club like liverpool as Slot did, and you have such strong foundations. There was stability. It was easy. We're the polar opposite. Then missing a couple of team leaders. Franks job is to rebuild the whole shebang. You ultimately set your own timeline. For me I'll appraise at the end of the season, taking into consideration the tools at his disposal.

braineclipse said:

To me it seems that most managers who end up with success at our kind of level are able to establish some kind of identity within half a season, a bit more maybe? Even with challenges such as injuries and settling in new signings.

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Winning really creates an identity. In this context style of play/identity are synomous with results. Before everyone jumps on this that there is a style and system and that matters yadda yadda....the point is results allow you to finesse a style of play. To play with pomp. To show confidence and a way of playing. Right now we're looking for a foothold. Getting the right players in the right system. Coordinating movement etc.

You wouldn't want us to stick with a losing system, just so we can say: here is a set way of playing. It needs to be a winning setup. And that can take time to refine.

braineclipse said:

That's not to say they don't then evolve that, the best managers mostly do. We've seen that evolution from several managers who have been labelled as having a "set formula".

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Agreed. I would ask those moaning about style of play what Fergusson's style of play was. It changed. It adapted. It got players playing better. And it started badly at United if I recall.

braineclipse said:

Part of my concern (the rest of this post is a concern and speculative) is that we're seeing the identity. Fairly risk averse on the whole, play it fairly simple and safe, defensive solity first, wide or long if under pressure, set pieces. "Brentford 1.0" just with no Toney and only one winger (Kudus) that really fits that style.

Then he can try to evolve from there perhaps?

It's a style that fits some of our squad, other parts not so much. Overall not a great fit. But I thought one of the claimed benefits of a manager with more dexterity was that he would find a style that suits the squad, not what the manager's preferred style was. In a shocking turn of events our squad seemingly suited a rather similar style of play he first used at Brentford in the PL. What are the odds?

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Winning is the style of play in Franks case. Playing in a way most likely to get a result.

thfcsteff said:

???
Not sure I follow? I said that I was happy to ride the weirdness of last season, especially given that we ended up winning a trophy via adapting (and yes, it was stodgy stuff). My hope was that perhaps we'd find some modifications in certain game situations going forward, yet retain the philosophy the players appeared to enjoy?

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You were lamenting a style of play - and a lack of it from Frank. A lack of positive play, presumably because you liked Ange's dedication to style. Yet we won the Europa League buy giving up that expanisve football. You wouldn't criticise this, and say, oh if only we'd played expansive football and not won the trophy!

Bishop said:

Sometimes with the posts on here I wonder if I was watching a different club last season. I missed all the really good football we played.

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I keep seeing posts about identity, ethos and people not understanding what Frank is trying to do. For me I haven't had an answer to these questions for 2 seasons. A few counter attacks doesn't equal being a good football team in my opinon.

We were terrible going forward with a much higher calibre of (attacking) player last season, and similar to now, we struggled to progress through the lines, the final third was brick. I struggle with the idea that people think the quality of football has declined from where it was before. I remember getting slapped up by Forest away last year, was 1-0 but we got destroyed. I've just seen we've lost to them the last three games which is amazing but goes towards my point.

Bishop said:

Sometimes with the posts on here I wonder if I was watching a different club last season. I missed all the really good football we played.

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I saw some really good football with a clear identity up to and including the Emirates Marketing Project away game. And then I saw a club on its knees making do and managing through with a historic injury crisis.

Bedfordspurs said:

Yep
It’s scatter gun approaches and changes in managed
Personally it’s nothing to do with Ange and everything to do with what I see every week
I did say that we should sack Ange last season. Finishing 17th isn’t acceptable. But his counter argument would be the target was CL and he achieved that
I also said i liked Frank and wanted him. I thought he would be a good guy
Clearly I’m a fudgetard who can’t judge managers for toffee
What I can see … on the pitch is what really matters. As much as we always need better players if people think we’re seeing the best of what we have then hey…. And the missing players need to be miracle workers when they return after missing 70% of the season to drag us up it seems. Better hope we don’t lose any others in the mean time I guess as the huge squad clearly ain’t big enough

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Yeah, we got a massive bonus from Ange's time here in winning that EL last season. Not only did it get the 17-year trophy monkey off our backs, it gave us CL football (the semi-holy grail).

I thought it right that the club terminate Ange's contract but also that it was right he got to bask in that glory for a few weeks (i would even have been happy if a permanent memorial of some kind was granted in or near the stadium to celebrate his achievement).
But does any club who has qualified for the CL replace Ange with a Thomas Frank, a guy who is well regarded in coaching circles but who had zero experience of managing: a) a club of our size b) a team in Europe let alone the pinnacle of European competition?

It says that actually we are not an attractive prospect for the level of coaches who would be used to managing in multiple competitions and not afforded the luxury of throwing games to play kids etc.
It also says that when we were really in the muck last winter that the club wanted to hire a safe pair of hands who could just concentrate on being 'solid' in the PL. Its almost like it might have been better for Frank that we didn't actually win the EL. I'm sure Frank is Lange's hire and not Fab's.

At this time it might be important to just ride out this season. The club hierarchy got themselves into this situation (e.g., Ange finished 5th just outside the top 4 and showed their ambition in the summer that followed by only buying one player who would be expected to go straight into the first team and have continued to neglect buying left-sided defenders) and they probably know they have to ride it out if only to at least get back a reputation amongst coaches that they do 'back their coaches' and 'give their coaches time'...

With Paratici looking like he's leaving, like you i'm not expecting any signings to help kick us on. No excuses post January if we are still lingering in 14th/15th, at that point that will purely be a reflection of Frank's weaknesses imo

SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:

I saw some really good football with a clear identity up to and including the Emirates Marketing Project away game. And then I saw a club on its knees making do and managing through with a historic injury crisis.

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That 4-0 at the Etihad was the most classic smash-n-garb you'd see. We were VERY luck to win that game let alone by that scoreline. It was absolutely GREAT considering the defensive injuries we had. But we have to note that this season's win was much more controlled and gave me the (false dawn?) hope that we'd be pushing on this season..sadly we haven't.

We played good football in only a handful of games last season, though we did have a clearer identity. I think a fairer comparison with Frank and Ange would be to look at their first seasons

glorygloryeze said:

That 4-0 at the Etihad was the most classic smash-n-garb you'd see. We were VERY luck to win that game let alone by that scoreline. It was absolutely GREAT considering the defensive injuries we had. But we have to note that this season's win was much more controlled and gave me the (false dawn?) hope that we'd be pushing on this season..sadly we haven't.

We played good football in only a handful of games last season, though we did have a clearer identity. I think a fairer comparison with Frank and Ange would be to look at their first seasons

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Ideally we wouldn’t be comparing the two