Ross Barkley

[scaramanga]

You do know what subjective means, right?

I do, although I have a feeling you may not.

Stats are objective, that's why people rate them more highly than subjective opinion.

Edit:
There's a handy mnemonic here should you get confused again:
http://writingexplained.org/objective-vs-subjective-difference

 

[Pirate55]

I do, although I have a feeling you may not.

Stats are objective, that's why people rate them more highly than subjective opinion.

Stats rely on subjective definitions of data. For example, how do you define a "chance"?

 

[parklane1]

Problem is you have no idea how many of these 'targets' we were genuinely trying to sign....

Good post, but i guess there will always have to be a spacegoat and despite the progress this club has made under Lewis/Levy there will always be a few who have to bitch about Levy. ( and also believe everything they read in the papers).

 

[scaramanga]

Stats rely on subjective definitions of data. For example, how do you define a "chance"?

Objectively of course, that's the whole point.

I don't define them, I don't need to because OPTA do it for us

Key Pass

The final pass or pass-cum-shot leading to the recipient of the ball having an attempt at goal without scoring.

Chances Created

Assists plus Key passes.

 

[Ade's folks are ok really]

Not only is Barkley injured, but anybody we bring in this window will have a fight just to make our bench.

Isn't that exactly what we need right now though? The first eleven is arguably the best in the league at full strength. We need players who believe they're good enough to break into that and are happy to fight for it, pushing our first 11 harder in the process (see Davies v Rose and Tripps v Walker last season).

We don't need players who don't believe they're good enough to displace the starters and therefore are content to wait for an injury to others or two-bob cup games to get their chance, only to then want out due to frustration at lack of starts in a year or two.

 

[Ade's folks are ok really]

Problem is you have no idea how many of these 'targets' we were genuinely trying to sign....

I know that, hence writing "Admittedly we don't know the ins and outs of every transfer / potential deal" at the start of my post.

 

[Pirate55]

the interpretation of both "assists" and "key pass" that are subject to an individuals assessment rather than objective test.

Hypotheticals,


If a player like Walker say, gets put through down the right side completely un-marked and crosses to two unmarked team mates in the penalty box, is it a "key pass" and therefore "a chance created" if

a) he puts it across and empty goal and no-one gets a touch
b) he puts it directly in the path of both attackers, but neither get a touch and therefore no attempt at goal arises
c) he puts it directly into the path of one of the attackers who fails to control it but would otherwise be trying an attempt on goal
d) he puts it into the path of one of the attackers but he slices it backwards and its not clear whether he was trying for goal or to set up his other team-mate
e) he puts it behind both attackers who therefore fail to connect with what most would consider a clear-cut chance?

and finally , if the pass to Walker was a magnificent 50 yard defence splitting pass (which cut open the defence in the first place) to leave him with this golden opportunity, under the current definition, this would not be considered a "key pass", while I would suggest most people would think it was.

 

[greatwhitenorf]

Re: the stats vs. facts thumb wrasslin':

I always thought most Spurs fans were attracted to the club by a certain style of play. A subjective appreciation that has nothing to do with stats or facts.

 

[billyiddo]

here's some facts for you then Pirate...

last four seasons

Barkley has played 10,236 minutes in 137 games and has notched up 18 assists and created a 195 chances

Lamela has played 5,603 minutes in 85 games games and has notched up 18 assists and created 159 chances

so having played a total of 4633 minutes (51.4 games) more than Lamela he has no more assists to his name and has only created 36 more chances.

numbers from squawker

 

[Jordinho]

Isn't that exactly what we need right now though? The first eleven is arguably the best in the league at full strength. We need players who believe they're good enough to break into that and are happy to fight for it, pushing our first 11 harder in the process (see Davies v Rose and Tripps v Walker last season).

We don't need players who don't believe they're good enough to displace the starters and therefore are content to wait for an injury to others or two-bob cup games to get their chance, only to then want out due to frustration at lack of starts in a year or two.

What we need is value for money. Forget about finding someone that will have an immediate impact. We need to continue signing young players that won't ask for ridiculous wages or expect to start most games. Hopefully some will develop into challenging for a starting position a year or two later. For me there are serious questions over Barkley's potential and he'll be expecting to be up there with our highest earners.

 

[greatwhitenorf]

Yeah, that's great Billy. But can you weight Barkley's stats based on the fact he's with Everton.

And then factor in the style points so essential to being a (potential) Spurs player.

 

[scaramanga]

the interpretation of both "assists" and "key pass" that are subject to an individuals assessment rather than objective test.

Hypotheticals,


If a player like Walker say, gets put through down the right side completely un-marked and crosses to two unmarked team mates in the penalty box, is it a "key pass" and therefore "a chance created" if

a) he puts it across and empty goal and no-one gets a touch
b) he puts it directly in the path of both attackers, but neither get a touch and therefore no attempt at goal arises
c) he puts it directly into the path of one of the attackers who fails to control it but would otherwise be trying an attempt on goal
d) he puts it into the path of one of the attackers but he slices it backwards and its not clear whether he was trying for goal or to set up his other team-mate
e) he puts it behind both attackers who therefore fail to connect with what most would consider a clear-cut chance?

and finally , if the pass to Walker was a magnificent 50 yard defence splitting pass (which cut open the defence in the first place) to leave him with this golden opportunity, under the current definition, this would not be considered a "key pass", while I would suggest most people would think it was.

None of those hypotheticals matter because that's not how statistics work.

Nobody (at least nobody with half a brain) bases their opinion on a sample size of one. They take a view based on larger numbers that probably include all of those variations and plenty of others too.

 

[billyiddo]

Yeah, that's great Billy. But can you weight Barkley's stats based on the fact he's with Everton.

And then factor in the style points so essential to being a (potential) Spurs player.

well that would then make it subjective and as Pirate has made quite clear he doesn't do subjective and only deals in facts (apparently) - so ive presented the 'facts' to him and now it's up to him to read what he wants in to them (or just ignore them i should imagine)

what i will do though to add in a bit of context via goals scored for each side over those 4 seasons.

13/14 - Everton 61, Spurs 55 (Barkley played 34 games, Lamela 9)
14/15 - Everton 48, Spurs 58 (Barkley played 29 games, Lamela 33)
15/16 - Everton 59, Spurs 69 (Barkley 38, Lamela 34)
16/17 - Everton 62, Spurs 86 (Barkley 36, Lamela 9)


* got a good fitness record tbf to him does Barkley

btw im actually quite positive on the prospect of signing him, i think he could improve his game here but as of yet he hasnt shown himself to be a better player for Everton than Lamela has been for us afaic and certainly nowhere near as creative, i think it's just the case of someone admiring a player playing at another club based on little more than the odd motd appearance and buying in to the hype that surrounded him when he burst on to the scene.

 

[Pirate55]

None of those hypotheticals matter because that's not how statistics work.

Nobody (at least nobody with half a brain) bases their opinion on a sample size of one. They take a view based on larger numbers that probably include all of those variations and plenty of others too.

My point is (if you had only read what I said) is that the compilation of these statistics is entirely dependent on peoples subjective interpretation of events. What is an assist, key pass or chance created to one person is not a the same as to another.

 

[greatwhitenorf]

Should also factor in that Barkley's hair probably has more mainstream appeal than the radical buzzings adorning Lamela's bonce.

 

[thfcsteff]

I will just say (again) I think that if he is prepared to roll with the Poch way, then this would be a great signing in squad terms (rotations, competition)...

 

[Pirate55]

well that would then make it subjective and as Pirate has made quite clear he doesn't do subjective and only deals in facts (apparently) - so ive presented the 'facts' to him and now it's up to him to read what he wants in to them (or just ignore them i should imagine)

of course it is subjective. As Greatwhite pointed out to you, there are many other factors involved, not least the respective teams that both are playing for. If a 2nd division player had more assists and chances created, would you consider him a better player? Of course not. You are not comparing like with like. Same here. Your "facts" are therefore not facts. They are someones interpretation of what constitutes chances. In the definition of "key pass" that Scara set out, a defence splitting 50 yard crossfield ball to set a wingback into clear space would not be counted under the definition. Modric is thus likely to have a "Key pass" count right down under this definition. Does it somehow make him a worse player?

A two yard tap in ones own half to a team-mate who goes on a mazy run and scores a spectacuar solo goal after dribbling round the entire opposition is called an assist. In the hypotheticals I set out in my response to Scara, under the definitions, some would be considered Key Passes and some would not. It all depends on the compilers subjective decision about what to include. They are therefore not "facts".

 

[harr1984]

I know that, hence writing "Admittedly we don't know the ins and outs of every transfer / potential deal" at the start of my post.

Well if you acknowledge that you cant then go onto speculate about our apparent failed dealings.....

 

[greatwhitenorf]

As "the legendary NFL coach Bill Belichik famously quipped, "Stats are for losers. Final scores are for winners."

Since that rarely works in Spurs favour, I prefer to operate under the wonderful maxim of the immortal Larry Gormley:

"Style. Smart thinking. And Showmanship!"

 

[Pirate55]

here's some facts for you then Pirate...

last four seasons

Barkley has played 10,236 minutes in 137 games and has notched up 18 assists and created a 195 chances

Lamela has played 5,603 minutes in 85 games games and has notched up 18 assists and created 159 chances

so having played a total of 4633 minutes (51.4 games) more than Lamela he has no more assists to his name and has only created 36 more chances.

numbers from squawker

That shows me that Lamela has only been fit for half the games that Barkley has! You conveniently left out that Lamela is playing in a free-scoring Spurs side with world class team-mates, compared to Barkely playing for a mid-table, average Everton side. You also conveniently left out the respective goal count of each player - wonder why?