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Politics, politics, politics

Gutter Boy said:
Financial services only make up 8% of our economy and 2.5% of our workforce. They have just been moaning the loudest/have too many politicians in their pockets. Throw them under the bus if it works for the other 92% of the economy.
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This is madness. There is a case for rebalancing the UK economy but you do not do that but throwing away one of your most successful sectors. And you haven't even been able to demonstrate that what you are proposing would be better for other sectors.
 
scaramanga said:
Us actually doing it is incredibly unlikely, just like the EU removing our access to the market is.

But both options have to be there to keep the dissenters with more extreme opinions from taking the argument in their direction.
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The two are separate and will be taken separately during negotiations. I would expect a reciprocal agreement on citizens living in the EU and UK to be reached reasonably quickly. Agreements on what happens on benefits and healthcare for them may take longer.

I strongly suspect that we are going to have to accept some reduced access to EU markets if we want to reduce freedom of movement into the UK. The more we restrict it, the less access we will have. There may be a compromise to be struck on our contributions, pay more to retain access but I cannot see that playing out too well with the UK press.
 
milo said:
The two are separate and will be taken separately during negotiations. I would expect a reciprocal agreement on citizens living in the EU and UK to be reached reasonably quickly. Agreements on what happens on benefits and healthcare for them may take longer.

I strongly suspect that we are going to have to accept some reduced access to EU markets if we want to reduce freedom of movement into the UK. The more we restrict it, the less access we will have. There may be a compromise to be struck on our contributions, pay more to retain access but I cannot see that playing out too well with the UK press.
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Take a look at what Merkel is offering (without directly saying so, obviously).

It's not about restricting numbers in of EU citizens, it's about restricting numbers in for a number of year after a country joins the EU. It also looks like we will be able to reduce/remove benefit payments on top of that.
 
scaramanga said:
Take a look at what Merkel is offering (without directly saying so, obviously).

It's not about restricting numbers in of EU citizens, it's about restricting numbers in for a number of year after a country joins the EU. It also looks like we will be able to reduce/remove benefit payments on top of that.
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We've always had the ability to do that, we have just chosen not to.
 
milo said:
We've always had the ability to do that, we have just chosen not to.
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I think the offer is for us to restrict benefit payments without us having to do it to our own nationals. My understanding (although I'd be very glad to hear if I'm wrong) is that we have to treat all EU citizens the same way we do our own.
 
scaramanga said:
I think the offer is for us to restrict benefit payments without us having to do it to our own nationals. My understanding (although I'd be very glad to hear if I'm wrong) is that we have to treat all EU citizens the same way we do our own.
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We do have to treat all European citizens equally. The simplest solution would have been to change the law domestically to a more contributory system but it would make little difference to the number of EU citizens coming to the UK because the vast majority are coming here to work.

If that is what Merkel is suggesting, there could have been some mileage in it but I suspect that it will come too late for us. I would have also thought that it would require treaty change, which may be difficult to get past all 27(8).

I think that we have talked ourselves into a corner where reducing immigration numbers is going to be what many measure the success of Brexit by. This is obviously suicidal because we are at virtually full employment, so there are not British workers to take up the positions left empty by EU workers not coming here or returning home. It is effectively a guarantee of shrinking the economy.
 
milo said:
We do have to treat all European citizens equally. The simplest solution would have been to change the law domestically to a more contributory system but it would make little difference to the number of EU citizens coming to the UK because the vast majority are coming here to work.

If that is what Merkel is suggesting, there could have been some mileage in it but I suspect that it will come too late for us. I would have also thought that it would require treaty change, which may be difficult to get past all 27(8).

I think that we have talked ourselves into a corner where reducing immigration numbers is going to be what many measure the success of Brexit by. This is obviously suicidal because we are at virtually full employment, so there are not British workers to take up the positions left empty by EU workers not coming here or returning home. It is effectively a guarantee of shrinking the economy.
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The are plenty of chav scummers on benefits or working just part time and getting benefit top ups, let them move to Norfolk and pick cabbages. I must say that I actually prefer eastern european workers to a section of the British work force so have no issue with them and would have really backed the whole you only get benefits when you have paid in. I also know a lot of eastern europeans and not one of them has signed on.

Still if we get to fcuk off the w^nkers in Brussels it will all be worth it in my opinion.
 
The fact that the UK have to pay benefits to any EU worker from the point at which they start working in the UK, tells you all you need to know about the EU and its drive towards melding the countries into one large State where the division between the countries (and hence the division between which workers from within the the EU are eligible for benefits) is effectively non-existent..
 
milo said:
We do have to treat all European citizens equally. The simplest solution would have been to change the law domestically to a more contributory system but it would make little difference to the number of EU citizens coming to the UK because the vast majority are coming here to work.

If that is what Merkel is suggesting, there could have been some mileage in it but I suspect that it will come too late for us. I would have also thought that it would require treaty change, which may be difficult to get past all 27(8).

I think that we have talked ourselves into a corner where reducing immigration numbers is going to be what many measure the success of Brexit by. This is obviously suicidal because we are at virtually full employment, so there are not British workers to take up the positions left empty by EU workers not coming here or returning home. It is effectively a guarantee of shrinking the economy.
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If you look at how Merkel has phrased it, I believe she's being cleverer than that.

She's essentially saying that whilst the wording of the treaty is about freedom of movement, what she's proposing would still be able to be called freedom of movement but with any changes being made between the lines.
 
glorygloryeze said:
The fact that the UK have to pay benefits to any EU worker from the point at which they start working in the UK, tells you all you need to know about the EU and its drive towards melding the countries into one large State where the division between the countries (and hence the division between which workers from within the the EU are eligible for benefits) is effectively non-existent..
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The UK don't didn't have to do this, we chose to do this. We had to treat an EU worker in the UK the same as we treat a UK worker in the UK. In contributory countries they have to contribute the same amount as a local worker to get the benefits. In this country we do not have a contributory welfare state.
 
r-u-s-x said:
The UK don't didn't have to do this, we chose to do this. We had to treat an EU worker in the UK the same as we treat a UK worker in the UK. In contributory countries they have to contribute the same amount as a local worker to get the benefits. In this country we do not have a contributory welfare state.
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You say "we had to treat an EU worker in the UK the same as we treat a UK worker in the UK": why did/do we "have" to?

Also, are all countries in the EU apart from UK ones that could be described as "contributory"?
 
galeforce said:
Why wouldn't we? It's exactly the right thing to do.
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I meant in terms of access to the same welfare benefits immediately after working here. For example, do Brits who start working in Australia have access to the same benefits as locals immediately after they start working there?
 
glorygloryeze said:
The fact that the UK have to pay benefits to any EU worker from the point at which they start working in the UK, tells you all you need to know about the EU and its drive towards melding the countries into one large State where the division between the countries (and hence the division between which workers from within the the EU are eligible for benefits) is effectively non-existent..
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They don't. It is our domestic laws that determine their entitlement.
 
glorygloryeze said:
I meant in terms of access to the same welfare benefits immediately after working here. For example, do Brits who start working in Australia have access to the same benefits as locals immediately after they start working there?
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Australia are in Eurovision not the EU ;)

You've got the same rights in any EU country as a national. It is just a reciprocal agreement.
 
milo said:
Australia are in Eurovision not the EU ;)

You've got the same rights in any EU country as a national. It is just a reciprocal agreement.
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That's my issue; it is melding the countries within the EU into ONE country by default and relegating the different countries within the zone into regions.
 
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