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Tom Carroll

The finger pointing at Carroll and Mason is beyond belief. I'm upset like the rest you but these guys are not the sole reason why the last 4 games have not yielded a win. These are junior members of the first team squad in experience, if not in age. It should be the more experienced pros stepping up and taking a grip of these games. Where were they when it came to the crunch? Hiding.
It's these more experienced players I would look to first but unfortunately their character was sorely lacking when it came down to it.
 
NaijaSpurs said:
So you think our current midfield makes us strong enough? You jest. We are in the Champions League and we need to challenge for the title. If we do not improve our midfield then we are standing still, and with the other top clubs all strengthening we will be effectively going backwards

As for WInks I would rather he be sent out on loan
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We're not standing still. Dier (22), Mason (23), Bentaleb (21), Winks (20) is an incredibly young midfield (with Dembele now at his peak). The will all get better each year as they head towards their peak in 5-8 year's time.

CL is no different to the EL really. Similar teams, 2 less games, you get knocked out in the last 16 by a big name. That's it really.

And the other clubs won't improve - they've all being going backwards for 5 years now, and will continue down the same wrong paths.
 
Rorschach said:
The finger pointing at Carroll and Mason is beyond belief. I'm upset like the rest you but these guys are not the sole reason why the last 4 games have not yielded a win. These are junior members of the first team squad in experience, if not in age. It should be the more experienced pros stepping up and taking a grip of these games. Where were they when it came to the crunch? Hiding. It's these more experienced these players I would look to first but unfortunately their character was sorely lacking when it came down to it.
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I can't dance with that, but the truth is the team has developed quicker than expected. If we had followed the expected curve we would be where we are now next season and they would have had the chance to grow with it. Expectations have moved on and these two will suffer for it.
 
glasgowspur said:
I can't dance with that, but the truth is the team has developed quicker than expected. If we had followed the expected curve we would be where we are now next season and they would have had the chance to grow with it. Expectations have moved on and these two will suffer for it.
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That's probably correct and these players may not cut the mustard for team in the CL, but I think the blame game is a little out of control today.
 
NaijaSpurs said:
So you think our current midfield makes us strong enough? You jest. We are in the Champions League and we need to challenge for the title. If we do not improve our midfield then we are standing still, and with the other top clubs all strengthening we will be effectively going backwards

As for WInks I would rather he be sent out on loan
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I am repeatedly seeing this. We need to challenge for the title next season. This worries me. It worries me that if we don't hit the ground running next year the knifes will be out for the only manager who seems to have put the long term vision of the club above his own selfish agendas in a long time.

We don't need to challenge for the title next season. We need to continue on the path we are currently on and improve. This doesn't necessarily mean challenging for the title.
 
Millsy_Yiddo said:
I am repeatedly seeing this. We need to challenge for the title next season. This worries me. It worries me that if we don't hit the ground running next year the knifes will be out for the only manager who seems to have put the long term vision of the club above his own selfish agendas in a long time.

We don't need to challenge for the title next season. We need to continue on the path we are currently on and improve. This doesn't necessarily mean challenging for the title.
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I personally think that, after this season's unforgivable collapse, we really, *really* have to break our points record next season at the least. That's 73 points, for those wondering.

I am an AVB fan, but I want to see that record broken, since it signifies genuine forward progress in my eyes - at the moment, all I can say about this season is that we were good. Were we *that* good, better than everyone else bar Arsenal (f*ck's sake) and Leicester? That is a question open to history, which is a sad reflection of our inability to breach the 70 point barrier. Were we good, or did everyone else just do worse than usual?

73 points is the minimum I expect us to get next season. Get it, and it will be a season of forward progress and success, in my eyes. It won't get us the title, but it will move us forward.
 
points total will depend on how the league shapes up - i get the feeling that top end points totals will continue to be around the same they are this year as the mid table teams are all getting stronger and able to take points off the top teams in a way we have never seen in the league before due to the TV money each club receives.
 
billyiddo said:
points total will depend on how the league shapes up - i get the feeling that top end points totals will continue to be around the same they are this year as the mid table teams are all getting stronger and able to take points off the top teams in a way we have never seen in the league before due to the TV money each club receives.
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Doesn't matter - forward progress lies in securing higher points totals than we have historically managed, with the ultimate aim of title contention hovering at around 77-83 points, which would win us the title in off-seasons and at least secure 2nd/3rd in competitive ones. Even if you do see the league getting more competitive, 70 points has historically never been enough ,and will never be.

Our first step to moving on lies in getting to 73 and beyond. It's not an unreasonable aim; convert one of these embarassing collapses against Saints and Saudi Sportswashing Machine into wins, and we get there.
 
DubaiSpur said:
Doesn't matter - forward progress lies in securing higher points totals than we have historically managed, with the ultimate aim of title contention hovering at around 77-83 points, which would win us the title in off-seasons and at least secure 2nd/3rd in competitive ones. Even if you do see the league getting more competitive, 70 points has historically never been enough ,and will never be.

Our first step to moving on lies in getting to 73 and beyond. It's not an unreasonable aim; convert one of these embarassing collapses against Saints and Saudi Sportswashing Machine into wins, and we get there.
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it does matter, if the middling teams become stronger than what is traditionally expected of them then that will have a knock-on effect at the top end of the table and the amount of points those teams get - you'd be comparing the points taken when the quality gap between the top 4 teams and the rest was vast, to points taken when the quality gap is much smaller, it wouldn't be a fair/even comparison.
 
billyiddo said:
it does matter, if the middling teams become stronger than what is traditionally expected of them then that will have a knock-on effect at the top end of the table and the amount of points those teams get - you'd be comparing the points taken when the quality gap between the top 4 teams and the rest was vast, to points taken when the quality gap is much smaller, it wouldn't be a fair/even comparison.
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Sure, but it doesn't matter if you're focusing on forward progress undertaken by the club itself, is my point. You can point to the league getting stronger and say that such point totals are an unreasonable aim to go for, but it still has to be something we do to win the title - in the strongest PL season yet (according to that logic), Leicester won it with 81 points, which mirrors United's winning total in 2010-2011, back when quality was much more unevenly distributed.

That still seems like the benchmark, to me. And personally I'm more obsessed by us moving up to 73 points and beyond, regardless of the strength of the league, than I am with waiting for the league to equalize to a level where standing still at 70 points is enough to win us the title or something (not saying that's what you're suggesting, of course).
 
@DubaiSpur i just think the dynamics of the league have changed in such a way that we probably need to use this season as the benchmark rather than a season from before, when (imo) accumulating points was easier - i guess my over riding point is that 70 points in this 'stronger' league is harder to achieve than 73 points in the previous 'weaker' league.

i do agree with the sentiment that points totals are a valid benchmark and have argued that in the past on here - i just think the shift in quality since the season we finished on 73 points means any use of that as a benchmark falls down because it doesn't factor in how much easier/harder it was to get them.


time will tell if the league actually is more competitive or whether the top 3 just all had appalling seasons at the same time - i genuinely believe the former is the case, next season is going to be unforgiving, about 8 teams that will be going in to the league thinking they have a good chance at the top 4 - more than half will think they have a good shot at the title too id imagine
 
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Millsy_Yiddo said:
I am repeatedly seeing this. We need to challenge for the title next season. This worries me. It worries me that if we don't hit the ground running next year the knifes will be out for the only manager who seems to have put the long term vision of the club above his own selfish agendas in a long time.

We don't need to challenge for the title next season. We need to continue on the path we are currently on and improve. This doesn't necessarily mean challenging for the title.
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Agreed, personally I think we haven't got a cat in hells chance of the title next season, its going to take quite a few games to get over this seasons collapse.
 
My fear was finishing second was going to heap pressure on us to perform and a target for for teams up their game and take a scalp.
Also the support to turn against the team if we drop below the level even a little.
Should be remembered that this is just the first steps along a long road.
 
billyiddo said:
@DubaiSpur i just think the dynamics of the league have changed in such a way that we probably need to use this season as the benchmark rather than a season from before, when (imo) accumulating points was easier - i guess my over riding point is that 70 points in this 'stronger' league is harder to achieve than 73 points in the previous 'weaker' league.

i do agree with the sentiment that points totals are a valid benchmark and have argued that in the past on here - i just think the shift in quality since the season we finished on 73 points means any use of that as a benchmark falls down because it doesn't factor in how much easier/harder it was to get them.


time will tell if the league actually is more competitive or whether the top 3 just all had appalling seasons at the same time - i genuinely believe the former is the case, next season is going to be unforgiving, about 8 teams that will be going in to the league thinking they have a good chance at the top 4 - more than half will think they have a good shot at the title too id imagine
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I get what you're saying, but what I'm suggesting is that it doesn't matter; in any eventuality, we will need more than 70 points to challenge for the title, and even if the league is getting stronger, we don't really know by what margin that will reduce the number of points needed to win it. However, it is likely that it will not be eleven points, the difference between 81 and where we currently lie stranded on 70. So, even if getting 70 points is harder now than it was in the past, an indicator of forward progress would still be moving beyond it; you can take that to be 71 or 72 points if you'd like, but I chose 73 purely because it's a) just one win more compared to this season's tally, and b) would break our points record in any case.
 
We want our team to improve and step up to in the CL and league title attempts but we don't want to use the young and burgeoning players as spacegoats and being removed. I can't see us doing both we are going to have get rid of some.
 
@DubaiSpur Oh I can agree with using 73 as a target for next season for those reasons - it's just using that particularl season as a benchmark that I have an issue with - for me the benchmark is this season
 
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