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Ian Walker
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Summer 2013 signings thread
- Thread starter SpurMeUp
- Start date
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SpurMeUp
Jimmy Cantrell
We tried to sign Oscar, Willian and Hazard. We were garzumped by oil billions and CL football.
You fit the narrative NW to the current reality. While I agree, Baldini didn't deliver, saying the signings failure was predicable two years later, is a paradox (it also forgets Eriksen's success). Had Modric been a flop you could say he was a shy, introverted family chap who Wenger identified as too light weight for the PL. It was obvious wasn't it?
To really understand what happened, where we went wrong, look at pool. There are a number of things that occurred in common that are insightful.
You fit the narrative NW to the current reality. While I agree, Baldini didn't deliver, saying the signings failure was predicable two years later, is a paradox (it also forgets Eriksen's success). Had Modric been a flop you could say he was a shy, introverted family chap who Wenger identified as too light weight for the PL. It was obvious wasn't it?
To really understand what happened, where we went wrong, look at pool. There are a number of things that occurred in common that are insightful.
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SpurMeUp
Jimmy Cantrell
If it was that simple to sign players successfully - by a paid intelligent professional working full time - then wouldn't every team make perfect signings?
The notion that Paulinho, Lamela and Soldado have weak personalities is wrong too. Paulinho and Lamela strike me as people who have heart and fight. Soldado too.
The amount of new players signed in one go, without replacing the departed star, the inability to attract the very best players, the focus on signing young players, and finally home grown players overshadowing the new signings are common to both pool and us.
If it weren't for Kane, Bentaleb, Mason possibly Townsend, Paulinho, Lamela, Soldado would have had more focus and a longer run in the team. Its a massive positive that we have these new players come through, but part of the problem is the bloated squad. The management need to work closely with a core squad, whoever they may be, get them set mentally, tactically and get their heads right. Hopefully we can shed some of the excess over the summer and Poch can work with a strong core team. Alternatively, I think we need a more extensive coaching setup, as manu had under fergi.
The notion that Paulinho, Lamela and Soldado have weak personalities is wrong too. Paulinho and Lamela strike me as people who have heart and fight. Soldado too.
The amount of new players signed in one go, without replacing the departed star, the inability to attract the very best players, the focus on signing young players, and finally home grown players overshadowing the new signings are common to both pool and us.
If it weren't for Kane, Bentaleb, Mason possibly Townsend, Paulinho, Lamela, Soldado would have had more focus and a longer run in the team. Its a massive positive that we have these new players come through, but part of the problem is the bloated squad. The management need to work closely with a core squad, whoever they may be, get them set mentally, tactically and get their heads right. Hopefully we can shed some of the excess over the summer and Poch can work with a strong core team. Alternatively, I think we need a more extensive coaching setup, as manu had under fergi.
milo
Jack L. Jones
I think the other mitigation that we need to remember is that they came into a team that was playing within itself with a manager who was falling out with people at the club and cutting himself off. Even if they were good signings we made in bloody difficult for them to succeed.
milo
Jack L. Jones
I think the other mitigation that we need to remember is that they came into a team that was playing within itself with a manager who was falling out with people at the club and cutting himself off. Even if they were good signings we made in bloody difficult for them to succeed.
I think this is a good point. We did not give any of these guys the platform to succeed. I almost feel as if Lamela in particular was used as a kind of political football in a power-battle between AVB and Baldini. I mean, it seems as if AVB wanted to make a point that this guy wasn't who he wanted and wasn't going to be good enough, I mean not playing the kid, then giving him his debut away to Emirates Marketing Project? What the actual f***?????? Talk about trying to publically break someone.
But the club KNEW Kane, Bentaleb, Mason, Townsend were coming through. They've known these kids for years. Mason and Kane have been talked about as potential first-teamers since they were 16 as far as I can remember.
Also, I'm not asking for signings to be perfect. Signings rarely are.
I'm asking that, if we decide to buy three record transfers in one summer, in the biggest outlay the club has ever seen, that we largely spend it on guys that have properly been assessed and have the highest chance of succeeding.
I don't think Paulinho, Lamela and Soldado have strong personalities. I think they have weak personalities, withdraw into their shells when the going is tough and all three are the stereotypical 'confidence player'.
Paulinho and Lamela in particular were ridiculously high-risk. Paulinho even had a previous, failed, stint in Europe behind him when he was younger. Lamela has to have his brothers and mum & dad with him at all times. They're not strong, out going people. The type of people that would find living and working abroad easy.
SpurMeUp
Jimmy Cantrell
The human brain looks for pattern. Which is why this thread is interesting. Why/ how did we seemingly spunk a large fortune?
And while I'm intrigued and enjoying your posts, the patterns you've found don't quite stand up. A players shyness is not a good measure of footballing success. Bale was a softly spoken timid, always crying at the slightest challenge. Modric also timid. Eriksen likewise. You mentioned Messi, wouldn't call him an extrovert either and he's Latin, double Latin - an Argie living in Spain most of his life. Hold on, maybe shyness is actually a good thing, the quiet ones who keep their heads down and train hard are they the players we should be going for? Or is it a load of gonad*s and a meaningless way to determine the success of a player?
Maybe you are onto something with them all playing a free role previously. It would be interesting to hear more. As for KNOWING Kane, Mason, Bentaleb would make it, well that is nonsense too and highlights how impossible it is to accurately predict the future.
And while I'm intrigued and enjoying your posts, the patterns you've found don't quite stand up. A players shyness is not a good measure of footballing success. Bale was a softly spoken timid, always crying at the slightest challenge. Modric also timid. Eriksen likewise. You mentioned Messi, wouldn't call him an extrovert either and he's Latin, double Latin - an Argie living in Spain most of his life. Hold on, maybe shyness is actually a good thing, the quiet ones who keep their heads down and train hard are they the players we should be going for? Or is it a load of gonad*s and a meaningless way to determine the success of a player?
Maybe you are onto something with them all playing a free role previously. It would be interesting to hear more. As for KNOWING Kane, Mason, Bentaleb would make it, well that is nonsense too and highlights how impossible it is to accurately predict the future.
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indianspur
Guest
coming through yes, but not to be all in the first team as they are now. If people at the club were so confident of that they wouldnt have spent all that money on Soldado, Capoue, Paulinho and Lamela. I mean why would you if you were so sure within a year and a half Kane, Bentaleb, Mason and Townsend would be essential first team regulars?
With youngsters there is always just hope they will progress to the first team. Its the same at every club but as we have seen youngsters find it almost impossible to break through.
i mean look at Mason, he was nowhere near being considered part of a PL squad let alone the actually first team. and just look at how divided fans are about him even being in the team. Some think he is vital to how we play, others think he rubbish and needs to be upgraded asap. Is that someone who was destined to be a PL regular for a CL chasing side?
It's not that shy players can't be good footballers, what I am saying is that personality can play a big part in how a player will cope with, say, playing in a different country, particularly one with such a different culture, how they will adapt to a different style of football, how they will adapt to living away from family at a young age, how they will cope with more exposure and more pressure, how they will cope with being a club's record signing, how they will handle a step-up.
Bale is shy, yes, and he IS struggling in Spain. He doesn't get on with the Real Madrid fans and press. He is being given a hard-time out there. He's apparently isolated from the rest of their squad. He's been good enough that he is still putting in good performances. It's not just shyness, however. You can be quiet, you can be shy, but you can be strong inside.
My point is that there was a lot of evidence to point to Paulinho not being strong inside, he had a previous FAILED stint in Europe. He had to be talked out of quitting football. He had personal troubles in the past. Lamela always surrounds himself with his family. Apparently we were told by Baldini not to expect him to perform for at least six months as he was fragile and struggled to adapt in Rome initially. This is despite coming from Argentina from a family of Italian heritage. He was young, he'd never experienced anything like a move to England, being away from his family, who he always has around him. He had to cope with being a club's record signing and he was a fragile personality.
Soldado again had spent his entire career in Spain. At 28 that is a big risk to pay £26m for. In hindsight, his game just does not appear to be suited. I think one or two on here did suggest doubts even when he signed. I wish i was one of them, not captain hindsight, but my point is that surely the club's scouts should have been highlighting this as a potential risk?
It's not a meaningless way of assessing risk of signing a player. Messi has never played anywhere other than Barcelona. His muted performances for Argentina until the recent world-cup would suggest a struggle to adapt ot other styles of football or other playing conditions. Who is to say he'd be as good if he moved elsewhere? It's never been tested.
Eriksen and Modric were not timid. Both had experience of living away from home, Modric had a very successful loan period to the physical Bosnian league. Eriksen had been living in another country from a young age and had numerous international caps and appearances for Ajax. Scandinavian and dutch players have a history of making successful transitions to English football. Culturally, England is similar to Denmark in many aspects, them both being north/west European countries.
Eriksen was a low-risk transfer. The fee was modest for a player of his experience and potential ability and most of the signs were good that he'd successfully adapt to English football. My point is that Paulinho, Lamela and Soldado were all high risk, in that IMO the risk of them not being successful was high. And they are our three biggest ever transfers and all took place in one summer after we'd lost our best player.
My point is that the person that thought that was a good idea, probably doesn't have many good ideas. My worry is, are they still at the club? Who signed off on it?
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indianspur
Guest
the biggest problem we have is convincing good enough players to join a club not in the CL and not prepared to pay big salaries either. So we are left scrambling around for players who high risks from numerous aspects (Paulinho,Soldado and Lamela), or who are looking to use us as a stepping stone to bigger things (Eriksen), or who are not really the types of players we want but at least they are prepared to join us (Capoue, Chadli, Chiriches)
Maltese Falcon
Niko Kranjcar
Not perfect but decent. Southampton brought in the same amount of players into a squad which had its heartbeat ripped out of it. Yet, despite paying a fraction of what we did, no one can dispute that their summer signings were ten times better than the ones we bought with our Bale money.
Fingers crossed that was Mitchell's doing and we can see something similar come July
parklane1
Vic Buckingham
Could not agree more, Caulker's hype when he got into the team was well over the top and he has found his level with two relegation teams.
SpurMeUp
Jimmy Cantrell
I would agree, in hindsight, Eriksen was a lower risk. Primarily because he'd played at a world cup aged 17 (was it) and played CL putting in player of the match performances. He's also north European origin, a more similar climate and culture. All cool. All in retrospect. I think the key was ultimately Eriksen's belief and confidence in his ability was more robust. You play at the WC or at Ajax in the CL, and White Hart Lane isn't daunting. Which suggests for the others, confidence was lacking.
I think Milo's point about what these new players were coming into complements your points NW. Take a player who may need a strong manager, tight set-up, clear instruction and confidence to see them excel; and throw them into a club in flux and we end up where we are now.
The other factor common to pool and us, not shared by Southampton, is expectation. You watch a film that you expect to be awesome, and feel let down if its just decent. I believe there are a number different factors as to why these players have not delivered on their promise. It's not just their intrinsic character (otherwise they wouldn't have made it to the top level in their competitive home environment) but also the environment they came into with too many players a young coach and an ineffective playing system.
We're still in the same situation and it may take a couple of seasons to move on fully. But there is lots of hope. Firstly our results are more or less the same. Secondly Southampton's success came from a strong structure put in place by our current manager (and previous manager as well as DOF) but Poch developed many of those players into £10m, £20m+ players (see Lambert, Lalana, Kane). Thirdly you can see what Poch is trying to do now. He needs players who can pass well and work hard - which is as it should be. How slow and ineffective was our passing on Sunday? The only real improvement on where we are now was with Bale and Rednapp. It would be great to get an experienced assistant manager in to help Poch. As fergi used to. A Martin Jol, HR or another more unknown. Mitchell maybe that man. Baldini doesn't seem to be. But we simply don't know what goes on behind closed doors.
I think Milo's point about what these new players were coming into complements your points NW. Take a player who may need a strong manager, tight set-up, clear instruction and confidence to see them excel; and throw them into a club in flux and we end up where we are now.
The other factor common to pool and us, not shared by Southampton, is expectation. You watch a film that you expect to be awesome, and feel let down if its just decent. I believe there are a number different factors as to why these players have not delivered on their promise. It's not just their intrinsic character (otherwise they wouldn't have made it to the top level in their competitive home environment) but also the environment they came into with too many players a young coach and an ineffective playing system.
We're still in the same situation and it may take a couple of seasons to move on fully. But there is lots of hope. Firstly our results are more or less the same. Secondly Southampton's success came from a strong structure put in place by our current manager (and previous manager as well as DOF) but Poch developed many of those players into £10m, £20m+ players (see Lambert, Lalana, Kane). Thirdly you can see what Poch is trying to do now. He needs players who can pass well and work hard - which is as it should be. How slow and ineffective was our passing on Sunday? The only real improvement on where we are now was with Bale and Rednapp. It would be great to get an experienced assistant manager in to help Poch. As fergi used to. A Martin Jol, HR or another more unknown. Mitchell maybe that man. Baldini doesn't seem to be. But we simply don't know what goes on behind closed doors.
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Key point, exponentially more difficult to build a top 4 side vs. top 8 (as we have seen from BMJ era -> now), smart, upper mid tier buys with decent manager/system = top 8.
Lot harder to make next step to CL spot, then exponentially harder again to be real title challengers (as seen by Scum/Pool)
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
No. He got 70 points. This bunch got 69 in 2013-2014, and now look nowhere near even that number.
Lol - caulker is a poor professional away from the pitch but was a huge prospect and still can be a good prem centre half. Even now he is better than vlad becAuse he doesn't lose EVERY header or doesn't get bullied by mid rate centre halves. But for 7m I am not going to coat him too much,
Whoever saw Paulinho and thought he would be good enough is a prick. His history of failing twice abroad and his lack of touch, passing and mobility is quite worrying.
Soldado was a big risk and with or without bale (I have seen this excuse trotted out) he looks like he was destined to fail. Small, not quick and struggles back to goal. For 28m we could have done better
