4-4-2

[Cochise]

I played around with the heat maps and it looks like it. Check out Besic and Barry, those two are definately a double pivot. Mason and Bentaleb don't cover the same area, but add in Eriksen and the three together do.

 

[africanspurs]

Very interesting map. More suprised to see that Soldado had a deeper average position that Kane, although this could be just because of Soldado being subbed and Kane then taking up the forward position. The midfield though does look very much like a 433 would, but we can definately see that we had no width on that left hand side.

Definately had shades of the Poch 4321 from last season about it though, where Lallana (Eriksen) quite often was expected to defend as a left winger would whilst having a free role in attack. Davis quite often got high up that right hand flank as well although not with the natural winger instinct Lennon has.

couple of things......

how is it 433 when infact soldado is right up there next to kane? Am i looking at the same thing you are?
also i think we did have width on the left in ben davies...that average postion includes defensive positions/..and everton had most of the ball in that game

how is soldado's average position deeper than kane?:-k ...i mean even if it was because soldado came off and kane stayed up at the end.....soldado was the main striker for most of the game

 

[billyiddo]

Hey I'm a massive advocate of the system... I could quote about 30 posts in this thread alone but I just thought today I didn't see a massive change in formation per se as a massive changed in work rate and attitude. The formation did look like a wonky but that's subtlety different to how we gave been playing (all be it with 2 strikers rather than 1 as AS points out and they also pointed out in tv)... The big difference was sheer balls and hard work for me

I agree. The difference in attitude yesterday was remarkable.

 

[Pirate55]

http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/matchcentre/tottenham-hotspur-vs-everton-30112014/#divHeatmap

The heat maps definitely hints at a 4-3-3 where the left forward plays more centrally.

One thing it certainly wasn't was 4231 though. Who was the third forward in your front three?

 

[milo]

One thing it certainly wasn't was 4231 though. Who was the third forward in your front three?

I don't think that it looked a million mikes away from that when we attacked. Look at the positioning of the players for Soldado's goal.

 

[Cochise]

couple of things......

how is it 433 when infact soldado is right up there next to kane? Am i looking at the same thing you are?
also i think we did have width on the left in ben davies...that average postion includes defensive positions/..and everton had most of the ball in that game

how is soldado's average position deeper than kane?:-k ...i mean even if it was because soldado came off and kane stayed up at the end.....soldado was the main striker for most of the game

Just going off the heat maps man, I'd agree that I noticed Kane dropping deeper more often and being the one to drop in and squeeze the midfield, but has often been said to me, the data doesn't lie.
So far as the 433 goes. I'm talking more about the ground covered by Mason, Bentaleb and Eriksen. The front 3 don't look anything like a 433. As Jord says, a lopsided 433

 

[Finney Is Back]

delivery should be coming from davies.....not his fault as much as his experience and the trust he generates from the rest of the team......i saw many times they could have used him on the left but chose a different option.....not a bad thing...just saying he could have been like BAE..constantly putting balls in the box. thing is though at times when he did get the ball...he would chose to pass infield and keep possesion...again..not a bad thing...just choices.

we definately played a cautious wonky...in the past when modders/ Niko was on the left they would be in the hold...but it would be jenas making up numbers with the strikers. in today's situation mason and bentaleb didnt really maraud into the box to make up numbers ... which i think we should be perfectly happy with as it limited our exposure to the counter PLUS allowed to to dictate when and how we pressed them

personally i think i am completely cool with the lack of one sides width..as long as someone can deputise there at a crunch and we keep playing well

I think you have summed things up perfectly AS (in both your posts).... Althought I would probably disagree slightly with your comment about Mason and Bentaleb not marauding into the box to make up the numbers. My perception from the East upper was that Mason got into a number of good attacking positions, similar to how Jenas used to, whereas Bentaleb played just like Carrick used to - shoring up the centre and keeping things ticking over, but with very quick, intelligent passing that often put the opposition on the back foot. Ericksen played very much like Davids used to... Tucking in when we had possession, to ensure we outnumbered Everton and creating a huge amount of space for Davies but then working his **** off to get out and cover Coleman when we lost the ball.

Bedford - you say that you're not convinced that the formation was the key today. While I agree with you that the workrate was indeed key - I think the formation helped ensure that workrate and it especially helped the players know when and where it was they were supposed to be working. For the first time this season I felt our two wide players properly tracked the runs forward of the opposition's fullbacks. It was clear that Everton were trying to overload us out wide (as we have been overloaded out wide in just about every game this season) but it didn't work as our fullbacks picked up their wide players, our wide players picked up their full backs and Mason or Bentaleb pulled out to track their extra player (typically Eto'o) while the other kept things secure in the middle.

When playing our 4-2-3-1 formation I don't think any of the '3' across the attacking midfield have been clear on who it was they were supposed to be defending against.

 

[Bullet]

I think you have summed things up perfectly AS (in both your posts).... Althought I would probably disagree slightly with your comment about Mason and Bentaleb not marauding into the box to make up the numbers. My perception from the East upper was that Mason got into a number of good attacking positions, similar to how Jenas used to, whereas Bentaleb played just like Carrick used to - shoring up the centre and keeping things ticking over, but with very quick, intelligent passing that often put the opposition on the back foot. Ericksen played very much like Davids used to... Tucking in when we had possession, to ensure we outnumbered Everton and creating a huge amount of space for Davies but then working his **** off to get out and cover Coleman when we lost the ball.

Bedford - you say that you're not convinced that the formation was the key today. While I agree with you that the workrate was indeed key - I think the formation helped ensure that workrate and it especially helped the players know when and where it was they were supposed to be working. For the first time this season I felt our two wide players properly tracked the runs forward of the opposition's fullbacks. It was clear that Everton were trying to overload us out wide (as we have been overloaded out wide in just about every game this season) but it didn't work as our fullbacks picked up their wide players, our wide players picked up their full backs and Mason or Bentaleb pulled out to track their extra player (typically Eto'o) while the other kept things secure in the middle.

When playing our 4-2-3-1 formation I don't think any of the '3' across the attacking midfield have been clear on who it was they were supposed to be defending against.

Hallelujah brother, amen, I agree perfectly.

In our 4231 the 3 just think "I'll try to get back but it's not really my job" and when going forward they all run into the same 10 yard space, so infuriating.

In our wonky 4411 (with Lennon playing) everybody in the midfield has a job to do and that they have to track back, and Lennon knows to stay wide which makes a huge difference.

And yes, Mason was arriving to score on a few occasions, it's just he wasn't passed to, but it was great energy from him as usual. In fact Soldado had 3 men wide open for the pass when he scored!

 

[Finney Is Back]

Hallelujah brother, amen, I agree perfectly.

In our 4231 the 3 just think "I'll try to get back but it's not really my job" and when going forward they all run into the same 10 yard space, so infuriating.

In our wonky 4411 (with Lennon playing) everybody in the midfield has a job to do and that they have to track back, and Lennon knows to stay wide which makes a huge difference.

And yes, Mason was arriving to score on a few occasions, it's just he wasn't passed to, but it was great energy from him as usual. In fact Soldado had 3 men wide open for the pass when he scored!

I was actually apprehensive as Soldado hit his shot (I must confess I thought he would miss!) as I think he had Mason completely free, square of him in the middle of the box.

I think it was also him up alongside Lamela screaming for the pass in injury time against Hull last weekend when Lamela took the wrong option.

His desire to get involved at both ends of the pitch is incredible I think.

 

[Lemonade Money]

Anyone else notice we were playing a 3-1-2-1-3 at 16:34:24?

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Anyone else notice we were playing a 3-1-2-1-3 at 16:34:24?

:lol: The arguments on here about formations really are hilarious at times.

 

[Pirate55]

I don't think that it looked a million mikes away from that when we attacked. Look at the positioning of the players for Soldado's goal.

Again, who is the "third forward" in your or Jordinhos front three?

 

[Pirate55]

I think you have summed things up perfectly AS (in both your posts).... Althought I would probably disagree slightly with your comment about Mason and Bentaleb not marauding into the box to make up the numbers. My perception from the East upper was that Mason got into a number of good attacking positions, similar to how Jenas used to, whereas Bentaleb played just like Carrick used to - shoring up the centre and keeping things ticking over, but with very quick, intelligent passing that often put the opposition on the back foot. Ericksen played very much like Davids used to... Tucking in when we had possession, to ensure we outnumbered Everton and creating a huge amount of space for Davies but then working his **** off to get out and cover Coleman when we lost the ball.

Bedford - you say that you're not convinced that the formation was the key today. While I agree with you that the workrate was indeed key - I think the formation helped ensure that workrate and it especially helped the players know when and where it was they were supposed to be working. For the first time this season I felt our two wide players properly tracked the runs forward of the opposition's fullbacks. It was clear that Everton were trying to overload us out wide (as we have been overloaded out wide in just about every game this season) but it didn't work as our fullbacks picked up their wide players, our wide players picked up their full backs and Mason or Bentaleb pulled out to track their extra player (typically Eto'o) while the other kept things secure in the middle.

When playing our 4-2-3-1 formation I don't think any of the '3' across the attacking midfield have been clear on who it was they were supposed to be defending against.

Great posts from you and AS. Formidable insight.

 

[Rorschach]

Anyone else notice we were playing a 3-1-2-1-3 at 16:34:24?

Yep I did.

 

[Rorschach]

I think you have summed things up perfectly AS (in both your posts).... Althought I would probably disagree slightly with your comment about Mason and Bentaleb not marauding into the box to make up the numbers. My perception from the East upper was that Mason got into a number of good attacking positions, similar to how Jenas used to, whereas Bentaleb played just like Carrick used to - shoring up the centre and keeping things ticking over, but with very quick, intelligent passing that often put the opposition on the back foot. Ericksen played very much like Davids used to... Tucking in when we had possession, to ensure we outnumbered Everton and creating a huge amount of space for Davies but then working his **** off to get out and cover Coleman when we lost the ball.

Bedford - you say that you're not convinced that the formation was the key today. While I agree with you that the workrate was indeed key - I think the formation helped ensure that workrate and it especially helped the players know when and where it was they were supposed to be working. For the first time this season I felt our two wide players properly tracked the runs forward of the opposition's fullbacks. It was clear that Everton were trying to overload us out wide (as we have been overloaded out wide in just about every game this season) but it didn't work as our fullbacks picked up their wide players, our wide players picked up their full backs and Mason or Bentaleb pulled out to track their extra player (typically Eto'o) while the other kept things secure in the middle.

When playing our 4-2-3-1 formation I don't think any of the '3' across the attacking midfield have been clear on who it was they were supposed to be defending against.

Bang on. I've been bleating on about the space in front of our fullbacks for a while and for the first time we actually had someone there!!!

 

[Raziel]

So serious question

- What team plays 2 up front, inverted wingers, pressing/possession game and it works? including attractive football?

 

[the dza]

So serious question

- What team plays 2 up front, inverted wingers, pressing/possession game and it works? including attractive football?

Add to that no pace in the lineup.

 

[Modric THFC]

So serious question

- What team plays 2 up front, inverted wingers, pressing/possession game and it works? including attractive football?

Real Madrid earlier today. Emirates Marketing Project do it all the time.
Bayern have started playing two upfront with Lewandoski and Muller, Ribery and Robben inverted with Alonso and Gotze in the middle. sometimes Gotze wide and Robben in the middle.

But you know Tony Gale knows best.

 

[Raziel]

Real Madrid earlier today. Emirates Marketing Project do it all the time.
Bayern have started playing two upfront with Lewandoski and Muller, Ribery and Robben inverted with Alonso and Gotze in the middle. sometimes Gotze wide and Robben in the middle.

But you know Tony Gale knows best.

So the best examples of it working are when you have

- multiple World class attacking players?
- teams each with two of the fastest players in world football?

interesting ...

 

[africanspurs]

So the best examples of it working are when you have

- multiple World class attacking players?
- teams each with two of the fastest players in world football?

interesting ...

You need people to fit the personell / formation

I have a couple of conspiracy theories but am not looking to get any points against me.....needless to say i think Pochettino tried to keep the same system but with lamela being lennon.

you dont just stick someone out on the wing in order to get a winger with wing play.......you need an actual winger for that.

the problem today was the full back on lamela's side...not attacking enough. This doesnt contradict the lennon needed a charlie type player i said before, far from it...its the same theory but with different strengths

Lamela's strenth isnt in being a winger...its in being a wing forward operating in the inside channels...for him to be potent and for the team to be cohesive then someone like kyle walker should have played...space for walker and space for lamela infield.

i dont know why poch didnt play lennon earlier or even start him tbh