Pedro Porro

[harr1984]

Porro has been one of our only "creative options" in the team for some time now, which hugely influences his positioning (which he then gets blamed for). The far post thing is a tactic, we leave the far post free (we are not the only club, City does it as well), it's happened on both sides, the right side gets targeted because we haven't had good options in front of Porro for a while (RKM, Johnson, etc.) and Porro is the high FB.

Spence is very good at 1:1 defending and has the flexibility to play both sides (which is honestly the only reason he's still here and got picked for England). The idea that Spence is anywhere in Porro's league attacking wise is so off it's crazy. Data
- Spence, 3 seasons at Spurs, 59 games, 1 goal, 2 assists
- Porro, 4 seasons at Sours, 117 games, 9 goals, 18 assists. Porro's Goals per 90 is 3X Spence, his assists per 90 is >4X

If you played Spence over Porro, this side would be even more brick at creating chances (unless you completely change midfield and how we play)

We can argue all day (and are each entitled to our opinion) but Conte didn't, Ange didn't, Frank didn't and RDZ will not pick Spence over Porro as starter, willing to put a bet on it.

I like Spence but doesn't have end product. Hes quick but delivery wise hes nowhere near Porros level. Like you say there's a reason why every manager at Spurs has Porro playing ahead of him....

 

[Raziel]

I like Spence but doesn't have end product. Hes quick but delivery wise hes nowhere near Porros level. Like you say there's a reason why every manager at Spurs has Porro playing ahead of him....

He's also going to be 26 this year, if he was 21/22 I'd buy what people think a lot more.

 

[billyiddo]

Porro has been one of our only "creative options" in the team for some time now, which hugely influences his positioning (which he then gets blamed for). The far post thing is a tactic, we leave the far post free (we are not the only club, City does it as well), it's happened on both sides, the right side gets targeted because we haven't had good options in front of Porro for a while (RKM, Johnson, etc.) and Porro is the high FB.

Spence is very good at 1:1 defending and has the flexibility to play both sides (which is honestly the only reason he's still here and got picked for England). The idea that Spence is anywhere in Porro's league attacking wise is so off it's crazy. Data
- Spence, 3 seasons at Spurs, 59 games, 1 goal, 2 assists
- Porro, 4 seasons at Sours, 117 games, 9 goals, 18 assists. Porro's Goals per 90 is 3X Spence, his assists per 90 is >4X

If you played Spence over Porro, this side would be even more brick at creating chances (unless you completely change midfield and how we play)

We can argue all day (and are each entitled to our opinion) but Conte didn't, Ange didn't, Frank didn't and RDZ will not pick Spence over Porro as starter, willing to put a bet on it.

I'd wager that Porro plays significantly more crosses than Spence does, probably in line with how many more assists he has. Does that make him better offensively?

 

[Raziel]

I'd wager that Porro plays significantly more crosses than Spence does, probably in line with how many more assists he has. Does that make him better offensively?

The numbers make him better mate, I literally posted his per 90 returns, his attacking stats are consistently 3X - 4X Spence.

Franks version of Porro spam and Kudus dribble into nowhere was frustrating for us all, doesn't change that Porro is better attacking wise across his career against a player that will be 26 this year (we are not talking about Gray/Bergvall that have potentially way higher ceilings still)

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

I'd wager that Porro plays significantly more crosses than Spence does, probably in line with how many more assists he has. Does that make him better offensively?

His delivery on large this season has been shocking.....

 

[Bishop]

The numbers make him better mate, I literally posted his per 90 returns, his attacking stats are consistently 3X - 4X Spence.

Franks version of Porro spam and Kudus dribble into nowhere was frustrating for us all, doesn't change that Porro is better attacking wise across his career against a player that will be 26 this year (we are not talking about Gray/Bergvall that have potentially way higher ceilings still)

Comparing

Porro has been one of our only "creative options" in the team for some time now, which hugely influences his positioning (which he then gets blamed for). The far post thing is a tactic, we leave the far post free (we are not the only club, City does it as well), it's happened on both sides, the right side gets targeted because we haven't had good options in front of Porro for a while (RKM, Johnson, etc.) and Porro is the high FB.

Spence is very good at 1:1 defending and has the flexibility to play both sides (which is honestly the only reason he's still here and got picked for England). The idea that Spence is anywhere in Porro's league attacking wise is so off it's crazy. Data
- Spence, 3 seasons at Spurs, 59 games, 1 goal, 2 assists
- Porro, 4 seasons at Sours, 117 games, 9 goals, 18 assists. Porro's Goals per 90 is 3X Spence, his assists per 90 is >4X

If you played Spence over Porro, this side would be even more brick at creating chances (unless you completely change midfield and how we play)

We can argue all day (and are each entitled to our opinion) but Conte didn't, Ange didn't, Frank didn't and RDZ will not pick Spence over Porro as starter, willing to put a bet on it.

Comparing Spence and Porro offensive numbers is a bit of a disingenuous take. You do know Spence has played the majority of his games on the wrong side and not his primary position? Why would he have good numbers when he's doing a job and filling in for us.

Let Spence play on the right and then you can compare (I would expect Porro to still have the higher numbers, but the eye test might show a much closer gap).

I'd also argue no manager has played Spence over Porro consistently because they have needed Spence for the left hand side.

You are also not addressing Porro's defensive weaknesses that cost us as many of bot more goals than he helps create. I want a quality RB who is good both in the offensive but importantly defensive phase. Porro has proven not to be that guy, I'd like to see if Spence can be and if he also isn't let's get someone who is.

 

[billyiddo]

The numbers make him better mate, I literally posted his per 90 returns, his attacking stats are consistently 3X - 4X Spence.

Franks version of Porro spam and Kudus dribble into nowhere was frustrating for us all, doesn't change that Porro is better attacking wise across his career against a player that will be 26 this year (we are not talking about Gray/Bergvall that have potentially way higher ceilings still)

You've missed the point, he's getting 3x as many assists because he's playing 3x as many crosses - for him to be better offensively there would need to more to his numbers than just attempting more crosses/offensive passes.

 

[Raziel]

Comparing

Comparing Spence and Porro offensive numbers is a bit of a disingenuous take. You do know Spence has played the majority of his games on the wrong side and not his primary position? Why would he have good numbers when he's doing a job and filling in for us.

Let Spence play on the right and then you can compare (I would expect Porro to still have the higher numbers, but the eye test might show a much closer gap).

I'd also argue no manager has played Spence over Porro consistently because they have needed Spence for the left hand side.

You are also not addressing Porro's defensive weaknesses that cost us as many of bot more goals than he helps create. I want a quality RB who is good both in the offensive but importantly defensive phase. Porro has proven not to be that guy, I'd like to see if Spence can be and if he also isn't let's get someone who is.

I didn't pick this season, I did multiple, I did per 90 views, I could go back to other clubs as well, country, Spence's numbers aren't close mate, and as I said, I don't see how at 26 he's suddenly going to become a way better player.

If you want a player better at both sides of the game, it's not Spence, and it would be a very expensive proposition (neither Spence nor Porro were cheap), and my main point, with all the brick in this squad, replacing either of them is simply not a priority.

The answer (or my answer) for Porro's defensive side is as with any attacking FB, be it Porro, TAA, Marcelo, whoever you think of, the system has to cover for what is often a positioning problem, this is done one of two ways, both of which I think RDZ will do
- Make that side so threatening the opposition on that side sits back, Porro/Kudus as example would limit how much the opposition is willing to risk committing forward
- What he has already done, which is have an aware midfield (Palhinha) come across to cover (or drop back into CB ala Dier under Poch) and allow the wider CB to come across and cover, or just play wonky and have the full back line shift across when one FB is high.

Re the back post free brick, honestly don't know, as I said, we do it as a tactic, other teams do it, I really don't know what the tactical theory is behind it and what the trade off is, I don't like it.

 

[elltrev]

You've missed the point, he's getting 3x as many assists because he's playing 3x as many crosses - for him to be better offensively there would need to more to his numbers than just attempting more crosses/offensive passes.

You think Spence creates the same number of goals via something other than crosses?

 

[Bishop]

I didn't pick this season, I did multiple, I did per 90 views, I could go back to other clubs as well, country, Spence's numbers aren't close mate, and as I said, I don't see how at 26 he's suddenly going to become a way better player.

If you want a player better at both sides of the game, it's not Spence, and it would be a very expensive proposition (neither Spence nor Porro were cheap), and my main point, with all the brick in this squad, replacing either of them is simply not a priority.

The answer (or my answer) for Porro's defensive side is as with any attacking FB, be it Porro, TAA, Marcelo, whoever you think of, the system has to cover for what is often a positioning problem, this is done one of two ways, both of which I think RDZ will do
- Make that side so threatening the opposition on that side sits back, Porro/Kudus as example would limit how much the opposition is willing to risk committing forward
- What he has already done, which is have an aware midfield (Palhinha) come across to cover (or drop back into CB ala Dier under Poch) and allow the wider CB to come across and cover, or just play wonky and have the full back line shift across when one FB is high.

Re the back post free brick, honestly don't know, as I said, we do it as a tactic, other teams do it, I really don't know what the tactical theory is behind it and what the trade off is, I don't like it.

It doesn't really matter which season you're talking about. Spence basically never played for us before Ange and Ange almost exclusively played him at LB so even comparing multiple seasons is still a disingenuous take.

I honestly don't care about the cost, I want better. We have to have better to do better.

In terms of attack it's like comparing TAA and Reece James. James doesn't quite match TAA offensively but is still very good in that respect but the gulf between them defensively is not even comparable. I would rather have a James than a TAA. Complete players is what we should be aiming for, bit players good in one area that inhibits us massively in others. If you haven't noticed we've conceded 60+ goals for the last 4 years. That is simply not sustainable if we want to get back up the table and be a serious team.

 

[Raziel]

It doesn't really matter which season you're talking about. Spence basically never played for us before Ange and Ange almost exclusively played him at LB so even comparing multiple seasons is still a disingenuous take.

I honestly don't care about the cost, I want better. We have to have better to do better.

In terms of attack it's like comparing TAA and Reece James. James doesn't quite match TAA offensively but is still very good in that respect but the gulf between them defensively is not even comparable. I would rather have a James than a TAA. Complete players is what we should be aiming for, bit players good in one area that inhibits us massively in others. If you haven't noticed we've conceded 60+ goals for the last 4 years. That is simply not sustainable if we want to get back up the table and be a serious team.

You wanting a better player is fine mate, said it somewhere else, every player (bar Kane) is upgradable, my personal opinion (can be wrong, have been wrong) is Spence isn't an upgrade.

Re the goals conceded, it absolutely is a fudging problem, I don't think it's a back 4 personnel problem (other than when we had Gray/Dragusin/Davies as fill in CBs), and RDZ bringing the goals per game conceded down by almost 50% in 7 games says a lot.

Sometimes I think you and I disagree because of idealism/pragmatism more than outcome, for me, if we are going to change 6 starting players this summer, it's midfield and frontline, not the back. Look at United, same brick backline and sitting midfield, 3 attacking players and a mid tier manager took them from 15th - 3rd in less than one full season