Micky van de Ven

[Finney Is Back]

You've quite a bit of experience at a good level mate. Do pros actually down tools? To me, it looks like our lot are completely demoralised and have absolutely no confidence in themselves, their team mates, the coach, the fans and the club and that's what we're seeing.

I see lads who'd kill you to win a 5 a side game every week. I find it hard to believe that pros would just stop trying.

I think it is a little bit more nuanced than that. When you do something at elite level the margins between winning and losing are often very small. It is very rare for players to completely stop trying, However, it can happen that players don't absolutely bust a gut and do everything in their power to give everything they have. If a player stops believing in his teammates or the tactics then this can happen without a player intentionally taking it easy, it just kind of happens. I suspect one of the reasons why there is often a new manager bounce is because suddenly players give their all to try to impress the new manager (just kind of human nature really). Unfortunately in our scenario we had so few players available that there wasn't really a need for any of them to try to impress the manager as they'd be playing anyway just by virtue of being available.

For what it's worth (not a lot I hear a bunch of you say) I don't think we showed a lack of effort last night, I also didn't think the performance overall was particularly bad (we've been far worse in many games this season). We gave them three awful goals where they didn't need to create anything and then they got a 4th from a free kick that should've been a yellow card for diving for their player. I actually thought we showed a bit of resilience and fight to not roll over and some of our play was OK despite us having so little creativity in the middle of the pitch.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I think it is a little bit more nuanced than that. When you do something at elite level the margins between winning and losing are often very small. It is very rare for players to completely stop trying, However, it can happen that players don't absolutely bust a gut and do everything in their power to give everything they have. If a player stops believing in his teammates or the tactics then this can happen without a player intentionally taking it easy, it just kind of happens. I suspect one of the reasons why there is often a new manager bounce is because suddenly players give their all to try to impress the new manager (just kind of human nature really). Unfortunately in our scenario we had so few players available that there wasn't really a need for any of them to try to impress the manager as they'd be playing anyway just by virtue of being available.

For what it's worth (not a lot I hear a bunch of you say) I don't think we showed a lack of effort last night, I also didn't think the performance overall was particularly bad (we've been far worse in many games this season). We gave them three awful goals where they didn't need to create anything and then they got a 4th from a free kick that should've been a yellow card for diving for their player. I actually thought we showed a bit of resilience and fight to not roll over and some of our play was OK despite us having so little creativity in the middle of the pitch.

And that I can sort of get behind as a theory. I'm just seeing a lot of "these lads aren't trying", "they don't care", "they'll be off next year", "they have their millions so they don't care about our suffering". I don't buy it. These are competitive footballers so I don't believe they go out on that pitch and don't give it pretty much all that they can. However, I think your theory above could be right. Even a slight drop at this level, caused unwillingly by other factors, can have a fatal impact on the chances of success. I think it's far more likely that we're seeing that than lads saying "couldn't give a f**k today, I'm taking it easy".

 

[90sSpursBook]

I find the most tiresome narrative being perpetuated inside and outside the fanbase at the moment is that Micky 'has clearly had his head turned and downed tools'.

I'm not disputing this is a possibility but what I see is a still relatively young player who's being asked to play in a system that clearly doesn't suit his best abilities seeing the brickstorm all around him and has become totally demoralised and suffering from a chronic lack of confidence.

There's an assumption that because he's a 6 ft 5 central defender who's very articulate that he therefore must be captaincy material and that because he doesn't shake his fist like Graham Roberts means that he's letting his teammates, club and fans down.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I find the most tiresome narrative being perpetuated inside and outside the fanbase at the moment is that Micky 'has clearly had his head turned and downed tools'.

I'm not disputing this is a possibility but what I see is a still relatively young player who's being asked to play in a system that clearly doesn't suit his best abilities seeing the brickstorm all around him and has become totally demoralised and suffering from a chronic lack of confidence.

There's an assumption that because he's a 6 ft 5 central defender who's very articulate that he therefore must be captaincy material and that because he doesn't shake his fist like Graham Roberts means that he's letting his teammates, club and fans down.

The club is at war with itself and he’s an easy spacegoat.

To me, he seems like a lad who needs sitting down and asked to talk about what’s going on with him. What we’re seeing from him seems to be a lad about to combust. I don’t think it’s lack of care, I just think he looks like he’s in a position he’s struggling to deal with.

We won’t get out of this by finger pointing and kicking lads when they’re down. Micky needs some help IMO.

 

[Bishop]

The club is at war with itself and he’s an easy spacegoat.

To me, he seems like a lad who needs sitting down and asked to talk about what’s going on with him. What we’re seeing from him seems to be a lad about to combust. I don’t think it’s lack of care, I just think he looks like he’s in a position he’s struggling to deal with.

We won’t get out of this by finger pointing and kicking lads when they’re down. Micky needs some help IMO.

I find the most tiresome narrative being perpetuated inside and outside the fanbase at the moment is that Micky 'has clearly had his head turned and downed tools'.

I'm not disputing this is a possibility but what I see is a still relatively young player who's being asked to play in a system that clearly doesn't suit his best abilities seeing the brickstorm all around him and has become totally demoralised and suffering from a chronic lack of confidence.

There's an assumption that because he's a 6 ft 5 central defender who's very articulate that he therefore must be captaincy material and that because he doesn't shake his fist like Graham Roberts means that he's letting his teammates, club and fans down.

People put too much weight into the emotions and make a ton of assumptions based on body language on people they don't personally know. Thats how you get these assessments about players supposedly not caring, even though clearly from the performances even under Frank we put in tons of effort, we are just lacking quality and application.

VDV is in poor form and has some questionable qualities but I don't think saying he doesnt care is accurate. Questioning whether he is good enough is a better lane to follow.

 

[DeanoAustin]

People put too much weight into the emotions and make a ton of assumptions based on body language on people they don't personally know. Thats how you get these assessments about players supposedly not caring, even though clearly from the performances even under Frank we put in tons of effort, we are just lacking quality and application.

VDV is in poor form and has some questionable qualities but I don't think saying he doesnt care is accurate. Questioning whether he is good enough is a better lane to follow.

I think there are some warning signs there based on his behaviour. VdV has never been a dirty player. He was sent off v Palace as captain and in the very next game he should have gone for a reckless, potential leg breaking challenge. His comments after the game. Him playing well below his level.

I could be wrong but he looks like a lad who is struggling to deal with what’s going on.

 

[LutonSpurs]

Think VDV is defo a bit of a prik.

 

[Trixster]

I think there are some warning signs there based on his behaviour. VdV has never been a dirty player. He was sent off v Palace as captain and in the very next game he should have gone for a reckless, potential leg breaking challenge. His comments after the game. Him playing well below his level.

I could be wrong but he looks like a lad who is struggling to deal with what’s going on.

To quote Reeves from The Replacements - quicksand.. Very apt for us currently.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

I see lads who'd kill you to win a 5 a side game every week. I find it hard to believe that pros would just stop trying.

SO much involved though to manufacture it, agents in their ear, eye on the World Cup, Eye on plan B for leaving, all of it can contribute towards less effort which is in itself downing tools

 

[Baleforce]

I don’t think he’s had his head turned or downed tools.

I think he’s brick, he’s been found out and he knows it, so is panicking.

 

[LutonSpurs]

I don’t think he’s had his head turned or downed tools.

I think he’s brick, he’s been found out and he knows it, so is panicking.

I think the hype got to him and he forgot he's just pace.

 

[robp135]

I’d be playing him LB against Forest.

 

[nelto]

I’d be playing him LB against Forest.

Not the old Left Back in the changing room joke?

 

[thfcsteff]

I think the hype got to him and he forgot he's just pace.

I think that's unfair mate. I've met him, he's a very decent, earnest and yes, young guy, but he essentially been told to play in a system which does not make the best of his talents; our current style leaves him as a penalty box defender of which he is not the best of the best (he will accumulate the experience necessary IMO). I do think he is going through a confidence crisis, and I think our management are failing in the task of lifting him beyond that.

 

[Rorschach]

I would say both yes and no it all depends on the players themselves i guess. Of course its all guess work on my part and we will never know for sure. At the end of the day its all speculation but there is no doubt IMO that his form and performance have dropped of dramaticly.

I would say it is not 'downing tools' as such. It's just stepping down the intensity and/or focus a few per cent that does it for you. The difference between being 'on it' and 'off it' is often not that much. Carrick's Utd is a perfect example of this, IMO.

 

[Rorschach]

I think that's unfair mate. I've met him, he's a very decent, earnest and yes, young guy, but he essentially been told to play in a system which does not make the best of his talents; our current style leaves him as a penalty box defender of which he is not the best of the best (he will accumulate the experience necessary IMO). I do think he is going through a confidence crisis, and I think our management are failing in the task of lifting him beyond that.

I'm going to go a bit further than this. I don't think he is a centre back. He is performing there, but I don't think it is his natural position. I know he didn't play there when he was younger, but if I was assessing a player with his strengths and weaknesses I'd move him to the wing.

 

[Rorschach]

I think it is a little bit more nuanced than that. When you do something at elite level the margins between winning and losing are often very small. It is very rare for players to completely stop trying, However, it can happen that players don't absolutely bust a gut and do everything in their power to give everything they have. If a player stops believing in his teammates or the tactics then this can happen without a player intentionally taking it easy, it just kind of happens. I suspect one of the reasons why there is often a new manager bounce is because suddenly players give their all to try to impress the new manager (just kind of human nature really). Unfortunately in our scenario we had so few players available that there wasn't really a need for any of them to try to impress the manager as they'd be playing anyway just by virtue of being available.

For what it's worth (not a lot I hear a bunch of you say) I don't think we showed a lack of effort last night, I also didn't think the performance overall was particularly bad (we've been far worse in many games this season). We gave them three awful goals where they didn't need to create anything and then they got a 4th from a free kick that should've been a yellow card for diving for their player. I actually thought we showed a bit of resilience and fight to not roll over and some of our play was OK despite us having so little creativity in the middle of the pitch.

Spot on.

 

[thfcsteff]

Have to say, I find the recent rush to condemn VdV in this thread pretty poor form.

I'm going to go a bit further than this. I don't think he is a centre back. He is performing there, but I don't think it is his natural position. I know he didn't play there when he was younger, but if I was assessing a player with his strengths and weaknesses I'd move him to the wing.

He certainly looks like a potentially great LB. Obviously the Dutch national side agree.

 

[Rorschach]

Have to say, I find the recent rush to condemn VdV in this thread pretty poor form.


He certainly looks like a potentially great LB. Obviously the Dutch national side agree.

Totally agree. LB or wing back. It would hide some of the deficiencies around positioning and his aerial ability, and make better use of his incredible speed.

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

While simultaneously addressing some of our issues about left-wing firepower further up the field.