Frank Give him time or get rid?

[Bishop]

Serious question, what would be progression? we have already lost 11 games this season, we are out of the domestic cups extremely early, we could easily lose very game in February, season could easily end with another 20+ losses

Even if Frank goes on some crazy run from March (let's say he wins 8 out of the last 11, we have won 7 of our first 21) it will still be a brick season.

The question is when, not if we fire him, now or in summer, therefore it's nothing but a lack of courage, planning and strategy that keeps him in role.

An interim, with a new manager bounce could get us results in the next 3 games which really would impact the season, lose those 3 and it's an even bigger hole.

Progression for me wouldn't strictly be results but the implementation of a pleasing system and move towards that system settling in and looking progressive. You say the season is fudged leady so what are we going to gain with an interim?

Now obviously if we keep losing games then yes he would have to go, but if that doesnt happen I don't really see the point in changing now.

 

[Raziel]

Progression for me wouldn't strictly be results but the implementation of a pleasing system and move towards that system settling in and looking progressive. You say the season is fudged leady so what are we going to gain with an interim?

Now obviously if we keep losing games then yes he would have to go, but if that doesnt happen I don't really see the point in changing now.

Honest answer is, it's a statement, despite what people think, we aren't going to sell 22 players, someone has to be accountable (my opinion we are suffering partially from wrong manager, but partially from last season allowing the losses just to keep on going). Managers need to be held accountable and the players need to be told, if you liked that guy, you should have played better.

It also would be a notice to the players that the manager is gone, and we will have to look at what else has to change (i.e. not all of you will be here for the next manager)

Sometimes things don't work out, even with the best of caveats, accountability even as a message is important.

 

[Lemonade Money]

I’ll call it now, Poch is the summer is more or less nailed on and he will tank.

So we've got that to look forward to.

 

[Rafa87]

Honest answer is, it's a statement, despite what people think, we aren't going to sell 22 players, someone has to be accountable (my opinion we are suffering partially from wrong manager, but partially from last season allowing the losses just to keep on going). Managers need to be held accountable and the players need to be told, if you liked that guy, you should have played better.

It also would be a notice to the players that the manager is gone, and we will have to look at what else has to change (i.e. not all of you will be here for the next manager)

Sometimes things don't work out, even with the best of caveats, accountability even as a message is important.

I definitely think that as a club we need to show we actually have some standards. I do honestly think a number of players see the stadium, the training ground, and the, let’s face it.. low expectations in the grand scheme of things, and think “ah touch, seems a nice enough place to play”. We need more winners and we need more players who hold each other and themselves accountable instead of ones that keep seeing managers off.

 

[Mikey10]

Honest answer is, it's a statement, despite what people think, we aren't going to sell 22 players, someone has to be accountable (my opinion we are suffering partially from wrong manager, but partially from last season allowing the losses just to keep on going). Managers need to be held accountable and the players need to be told, if you liked that guy, you should have played better.

Can’t say that’s worked at any point in the last 6 or 7 years - but, hey, let’s give it another whirl! Why the hell not?!!

 

[metalgear]

depends on who is available.

hope we are working on tuchel - proper ocd psychopath who will whip the squad and backroom staff into shape at all costs

 

[Eriktheviking]

I'll take the bet .. from someone who isn't a Poch die hard, he would do way more with the squad than Frank

Do you not remember the last year (probably last 6 months if i recall, early part of '19 was decent) of Poch's tenure?? The CL run was very strange as it was the antithesis of the league form and we got our fair amount of things going out way. Much like the last 7 months under Ange. We were 3 wins from 12 before he got replaced.

He couldnt do it with the players that he had at the time which were much better than those we have now, what makes you think he can with these?

Yes i get the argument about refreshing the squad but based on arguments on here he should have got some kind of tune out of what he had - and that is the basis for my reservations on Poch.

 

[braineclipse]

Do you not remember the last year (probably last 6 months if i recall, early part of '19 was decent) of Poch's tenure?? The CL run was very strange as it was the antithesis of the league form and we got our fair amount of things going out way. Much like the last 7 months under Ange. We were 3 wins from 12 before he got replaced.

He couldnt do it with the players that he had at the time which were much better than those we have now, what makes you think he can with these?

Yes i get the argument about refreshing the squad but based on arguments on here he should have got some kind of tune out of what he had - and that is the basis for my reservations on Poch.

The squad no longer suited his football imo. It was better than this squad, but had aged and could no longer do the high press as much.

The current squad is better suited to him than that one was. And like his squad earlier in his tenure here we have a young squad with a lot of talent.

I do think he was a bit ahead of the curve though at that (good/great) time. He was doing things most managers weren't that have now become more standard. I don't think he is ahead of the curve now and I'm not sure when not being ahead of the curve if he's as good a manager as he was then.

 

[braineclipse]

depends on who is available.

hope we are working on tuchel - proper ocd psychopath who will whip the squad and backroom staff into shape at all costs

Not convinced on Tuchel.

Agreed that it depends on who is available. But we need to get the DoF situation sorted out first. Or at the very least have that lined up so they can be consulted on the way forward.

 

[billyiddo]

Do you not remember the last year (probably last 6 months if i recall, early part of '19 was decent) of Poch's tenure?? The CL run was very strange as it was the antithesis of the league form and we got our fair amount of things going out way. Much like the last 7 months under Ange. We were 3 wins from 12 before he got replaced.

He couldnt do it with the players that he had at the time which were much better than those we have now, what makes you think he can with these?

Yes i get the argument about refreshing the squad but based on arguments on here he should have got some kind of tune out of what he had - and that is the basis for my reservations on Poch.

Not arguing one way or the other regarding how he would do here this time around but I think that using that last year doesn't really say anything - being at a club for 5-6 years and having a team come to the end of it's cycle without there being a proper plan in place to rebuild (as evidenced by the lack of transfer activity for several windows and prior to that the likes of Sissoko being bought) is a different kettle of fish to coming in to a job fresh.

 

[thfcsteff]

And not only are that but the players who made the progressive passes to get us into attacking third have largely been absent too; only 3 out of our top 10 from last season are even available for selection currently.

View attachment 21220

I think it is fair to point out that TF has binned Bissoma off (albeit I think he has to reintegrate him right now), he did not want to work with Brennan, and he has used Pape sparingly during the last couple of months. Question too - are those progressive passes through the middle of the pitch, or are those also forward passed up the line?

I agree it is unfortunate for Frank to have lost Madders and Deki for his whole time thus far; any club would suffer. Again though, I wonder whether they'd be better quality players still playing in his preferred style, or better quality players allowing him to approach our style of play differently? I have my own thoughts.

 

[robp135]

I was born in 1986 turned 5 days after the 1991 FA Cup Final. While I can’t remember if I watched the game live, I watched the VHS recording of the game hundreds of times in my youth. That along with a BBC review of the 1990 World Cup formulated my views on football and Spurs.

To me Tottenham Hotspur were the club that had won the FA Cup more than any other. We had Englands best 2 players in Gazza & Lineker. We were managed by Barcelonas former coach Venables. We were a special club.

If you would have told that 5 year old boy that 35 years later, this club had snot won another FA Cup he would never beleive it. Nor anyone else that loves this club.

This club has given me some great moments. I’ve seen some great players. I know there are 90 other professional clubs that have had it worse than us in my lifetime. But fudging hell, winning one FA Cup in my entire life?

It’s just not what I signed up for. We are meant to be a special club. But we’re the worst of the best and the butt of all the jokes.

I’m never going to stop being a Spurs supporter. But this is the most disalusioned I have ever been and I need something to pull me back and sacking Frank could be just that.

 

[billyiddo]

I think it is fair to point out that TF has binned Bissoma off (albeit I think he has to reintegrate him right now), he did not want to work with Brennan, and he has used Pape sparingly during the last couple of months. Question too - are those progressive passes through the middle of the pitch, or are those also forward passed up the line?

I agree it is unfortunate for Frank to have lost Madders and Deki for his whole time thus far; any club would suffer. Again though, I wonder whether they'd be better quality players still playing in his preferred style, or better quality players allowing him to approach our style of play differently? I have my own thoughts.

Depends on what you consider to be Frank's prefered style of play.

As previously mentioned, at Brentford last year both Noorgard and Damsgard were playing progressive vertical passes through the middle of the pitch (both with more progressive passes than anything Bentancur has shown in the PL) and Brentford used the middle of the pitch for progression as much as either wing (more so than us last season and certainly this season) i think either Frank doesn't trust our CM options wrt giving up possession (maybe the data from last season shows this is where our high number of goals conceded comes from?) and/or he is starting here with a more basic, cautious approach before tweaking it. It doesn't make sense to me that he would consider this style of play the end goal given his best football at Brentford came off the back of something different.

 

[Eriktheviking]

The squad no longer suited his football imo. It was better than this squad, but had aged and could no longer do the high press as much.

The current squad is better suited to him than that one was. And like his squad earlier in his tenure here we have a young squad with a lot of talent.

I do think he was a bit ahead of the curve though at that (good/great) time. He was doing things most managers weren't that have now become more standard. I don't think he is ahead of the curve now and I'm not sure when not being ahead of the curve if he's as good a manager as he was then.

So in the same breath this squad is probably not suited to TF style of football. Apples with apples. Need to keep the arguments consistent

 

[thfcsteff]

Depends on what you consider to be Frank's prefered style of play.

As previously mentioned, at Brentford last year both Noorgard and Damsgard were playing progressive vertical passes through the middle of the pitch (both with more progressive passes than anything Bentancur has shown in the PL) and Brentford used the middle of the pitch for progression as much as either wing (more so than us last season and certainly this season) i think either Frank doesn't trust our CM options wrt giving up possession (maybe the data from last season shows this is where our high number of goals conceded comes from?) and/or he is starting here with a more basic, cautious approach before tweaking it. It doesn't make sense to me that he would consider this style of play the end goal given his best football at Brentford came off the back of something different.

In general, Brentford never wanted to 'have' the ball and 'control' games though. Their average last season was 47%, which admittedly was an improvement over the previous season's 45%. Our average last season was 54%, a far more conservative number than the previous season's 62%.

Whilst I accept that there were vertical passes through the middle of the pitch, the overall style and model of play was still set in deeper, counter-attacking football. Look, if that's what we're being patient for (deeper, counter-attacking football which will eventually also yield some progressive passes through the middle of the pitch) and you're satisfied with that, all good. I do not think it's a sustainable style if a club wants to win things regularly.

If there is an assumption that Frank is going to to develop us back into a side which looks to have at least 54% possession (hopefully more) then I would say it is based on hope more than Premier League TF precedent.

(I think the concession data last season would certainly have to majorly include how poor we were defending set-pieces. In that regard I think TF deserves a lot credit for getting this simple yet important side of our game together).

 

[thfcsteff]

I should add that at this point, I just feel exceptionally sorry for Thomas Frank. This club has chewed up and spat out tougher and bigger names than him. It is in many ways the most unique challenge in football IMO. He is currently being slowly masticated in an ugly and uncomfortable fashion. I really cannot believe those above and around him have not found a way to make some supportive statements (I would happily advise them as to how this could be done without seeming like a dreaded 'vote of confidence'). I actually find the silence around him very unsettling and unfair.

 

[billyiddo]

In general, Brentford never wanted to 'have' the ball and 'control' games though. Their average last season was 47%, which admittedly was an improvement over the previous season's 45%. Our average last season was 54%, a far more conservative number than the previous season's 62%.

Whilst I accept that there were vertical passes through the middle of the pitch, the overall style and model of play was still set in deeper, counter-attacking football. Look, if that's what we're being patient for (deeper, counter-attacking football which will eventually also yield some progressive passes through the middle of the pitch) and you're satisfied with that, all good. I do not think it's a sustainable style if a club wants to win things regularly.

If there is an assumption that Frank is going to to develop us back into a side which looks to have at least 54% possession (hopefully more) then I would say it is based on hope more than Premier League TF precedent.

(I think the concession data last season would certainly have to majorly include how poor we were defending set-pieces. In that regard I think TF deserves a lot credit for getting this simple yet important side of our game together).

They flicked between a high press and counter attacking football - it wasn't purely one or the other. We've seen a glimmer of that this season but for whatever reason it isn't consistent.

Just throwing it out there but perhaps conditioning/fitness of the players is a concern.

 

[Raziel]

I should add that at this point, I just feel exceptionally sorry for Thomas Frank. This club has chewed up and spat out tougher and bigger names than him. It is in many ways the most unique challenge in football IMO. He is currently being slowly masticated in an ugly and uncomfortable fashion. I really cannot believe those above and around him have not found a way to make some supportive statements (I would happily advise them as to how this could be done without seeming like a dreaded 'vote of confidence'). I actually find the silence around him very unsettling and unfair.

And I don't disagree, while I feel it's criminal negligence at this point not to have replaced him already, he's been hung out to dry

- No support from the transfer window
- No message from Vinai, Lange, Lewis, anyone to at least take some of the questions/heat away from him

And finally, as a leader of people, sometimes you hire people and it doesn't work out, and you see them floundering, you see the mental impact, and the right thing to do (beyond just for the business) is to make the call, postponing Frank's dismissal is not helping him at this point.

Everyone including him knows he's not here next season

 

[braineclipse]

So in the same breath this squad is probably not suited to TF style of football. Apples with apples. Need to keep the arguments consistent

No it isn't.

We spent two years trying to assemble a squad for Angeball, never completing that. Then now trying to shape that into a Frankball squad, spend two years doing that then try to have a half assembled Frankball squad try to play Nextguyball

My opinion is get an identity first anchored higher up than the head coach, then have or get a coach who has significant experience playing something that fits with that. Must admit though, Alonso getting sacked... Could we?

 

[BrentwoodSpur]

Xabi Alonso is free….