Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[parj]

Jol and Redknapp had already done that.

Martin Jol had zero top4 finishes, Redknapp had 2 out of 4 seasons, Poch had 4 out of 5 seasons, plus a UCL final and genuinely competing with Europes elite.

We made excuses for Redknapp not getting top 4, but expected Poch to get it.

 

[parj]

I think there is a body of evidence since he left the club to suggest that Poch is far from a genius. What he was though was someone who understood the very fabric of the club, and who if backed could have gone on to win something with us. Alex Ferguson used to evolve his teams every 5-6 years and unfortunately the new stadium meant that the money wasn't there to do that for Poch, who is one of the few managers in my lifetime who has been at the club long enough to be in a position to evolve the side.

If you can find an era where we had better players than Dembele, Walker, Toby, Jan, Eriksen, Kane, Dele, Son and Lloris at the same time, I will salute your better knowledge.

Didn't Redknapp have Palacios, Sandro, van der Vaart, Bale, Modric, Walker, Defoe, Keane, Parker, Adebayor, ? Not saying necessarily better than Poch, but 4 of those players for Real Madrid, and two of them were in the top 3 players in the world in their position.

 

[Muttley]

As far as I can see, it feels like almost everyone who is Frank-positive would also say that our squad currently isn’t that good. And would probably also say that Poch just inherited amazing world class players.

Being objective, Poch started with Hugo, Walker, Rose, Vertonghen, Dembele, Eriksen, Kane. Some great club work had been done on a couple of new signings as he joined, namely Dele, Dier and Sonny. Behind that came Toby and eventually Big Vic. All of a sudden we had a major force. Poch rolled up his sleeves and went to work nurturing the squad.

Frank knows he wasn't quite as lucky as Poch but it was a rosy picture. He has inherited a good bunch of players. We've done some great work in the transfer windows across multiple years but it's not quite at the level Poch inherited, at least I don't think so. We do have some outstanding players though and Frank is a luckier guy than our last 4 or 5 managers.

Saying "Frank-positive means our squad not being good" doesn't jive with me at all. It feels like a free hit at Frank to be fair.

 

[parj]

I don’t think there’s evidence since he left us that proves anything either way. What I think is interesting about him is that he’s tried his hand at different challenges. He evolved from the mid table guy, to the guy who built a culture with us, to a guy managing superstars with PSG. Then signing up to another project with Chelsea and trying to build a culture with the USA.

But maybe his genius was in doing exactly what we needed him to do. Maybe he shouldn’t be managing the biggest egos. His approach isn’t Ancelotti or Zidane, but it’s interesting that he tried to adapt it to work at PSG. And maybe he’ll continue to develop in that regard. But at this level everyone is naturally good at something, and I think he is naturally good at what we needed him to be, and probably would need again. It’s culture building, it’s improving players, it’s systems to make us outperform our financial station, and actually playing the tactical chess versus the bigger sides so that we competed well with them too.

Makes me laugh seeing something like our results from his last full season read out without context as if it proves anything. All it shows to me is that context is extremely important. No signings for three windows. A run to the CL final. Holding on to a bunch of players he wanted to sell before their decline, being unable to play the aggressive style of football that made us as good as we were because those players couldn’t and wouldn’t run as hard anymore. And yet,,,still 4th and the CL final! It is insane what he achieved. And it baffles me that anyone can look at the state of the club since he left and think there is any way we can talk down his achievements, especially with the constraints he was dealt.

This is what I don't understand. We have genuinely become a laughing stock since he left. Sometimes I feel the way Poch gets spoken about is that he almost got us relegated.

 

[parj]

Being objective, Poch started with Hugo, Walker, Rose, Vertonghen, Dembele, Eriksen, Kane. Some great club work had been done on a couple of new signings as he joined, namely Dele, Dier and Sonny. Behind that came Toby and eventually Big Vic. All of a sudden we had a major force. Poch rolled up his sleeves and went to work nurturing the squad.

Frank knows he wasn't quite as lucky as Poch but it was a rosy picture. He has inherited a good bunch of players. We've done some great work in the transfer windows across multiple years but it's not quite at the level Poch inherited, at least I don't think so. We do have some outstanding players though and Frank is a luckier guy than our last 4 or 5 managers.

Saying "Frank-positive means our squad not being good" doesn't jive with me at all. It feels like a free hit at Frank to be fair.

I do think Frank had inherited a good squad. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but remember, Pochs original remit was to try and keep us competitive for Europe until stadium is done and then kick on. Not even the club thought the squad was that good when Poch arrived.

In 6 years time, we could end up saying TF started with a better team than Poch because e have no idea the levels of the players yet but either way, we have to remember the manager has to coach the players and play in a system that works.

The manager that had the star players entering their prime was Jose and Conte.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Martin Jol had zero top4 finishes, Redknapp had 2 out of 4 seasons, Poch had 4 out of 5 seasons, plus a UCL final and genuinely competing with Europes elite.

We made excuses for Redknapp not getting top 4, but expected Poch to get it.

Jol tool us from mid table obscurity to two top 5 finishes with a first real sense of breaking the top 4 ceiling. Bloke was the first through the wall in what was progression. Respect should always be put on his name

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Jol tool us from mid table obscurity to two top 5 finishes with a first real sense of breaking the top 4 ceiling. Bloke was the first through the wall in what was progression. Respect should always be put on his name

Agreed with this. Club was a complete mush of nothing until Jol got the job. Credit Arnesen too. And I guess credit Levy for finally alighting on the strategy that would see us make progress after the Pleat caretaker season. But Jol brought hope that we hadn’t felt for years.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Being objective, Poch started with Hugo, Walker, Rose, Vertonghen, Dembele, Eriksen, Kane. Some great club work had been done on a couple of new signings as he joined, namely Dele, Dier and Sonny. Behind that came Toby and eventually Big Vic. All of a sudden we had a major force. Poch rolled up his sleeves and went to work nurturing the squad.

Frank knows he wasn't quite as lucky as Poch but it was a rosy picture. He has inherited a good bunch of players. We've done some great work in the transfer windows across multiple years but it's not quite at the level Poch inherited, at least I don't think so. We do have some outstanding players though and Frank is a luckier guy than our last 4 or 5 managers.

Saying "Frank-positive means our squad not being good" doesn't jive with me at all. It feels like a free hit at Frank to be fair.

I’m not trying to free hit at Frank, I’m just calling it as I see it. It might not be universal on this board but so many of the people that are actually positive about Frank’s prospects are also the ones saying the squad isn’t very good and can’t be expected to play better football. To be clear, i think I’ve gone some way to trying to explain what I think Frank is trying to do. I think I could consider myself fairly Frank positive. But I don’t feel like I have to talk down the quality of the squad to do it. I think he deserves time because any good manager deserves time. And there are so many examples of clubs showing a bit of patience at the start of a tenure and reaping the rewards months or years down the line. For Spurs to not have the most money I think we have no other option to do exactly that. If Frank isn’t the right one, we can evaluate at the end of season one or two. But I’m not trying to take a shot at Frank.

I just think it’s interesting that all of these players hit their potential and performed at an elite level, all at the same time, under Poch. I think taking away Poch’s achievement in doing that is to excuse away the idea that a manager can actually have such a transformative impact. I believe they can. Yes the club did work to bring these players in, but they are precisely the players we have to take punts on because we can’t afford the finished articles. Same as now. I actually think there’s a chance that Frank’s method gets us to a good place too. But I find it interesting that people are like ‘Solanke being out means we can’t do XYZ’ when he’s been replaced by a World Cup finalist, French international who went for almost 100m not too long ago and performed well for Juventus last season. I just think this talking down of the squad options we have is excusing Frank. And I don’t think Frank needs the excuse.

I think Frank has good options. And I think his method is to make decisions that will pay off over the course of a season. So I’m waiting to see how it all plays out. But Poch’s Kane back up in his second season was Vincent Janssen. So let’s not act like Frank doesn’t have good options at his disposal.

 

[thfcsteff]

Was that the season where Poch got us to the CL final with zero new signings in the summer or January and more than half of his team going to the last game at the World Cup before the season started.

4th and a CL final when dealt that hand…. What a genius he was!

Indeed.
We got to the CL Final with Winks and Sissoko in midfield.
I think a few people round here need to let that sink in.
In fact, all I’ve seen in what is another of these absurd ‘debates’ is that a lot more people than I thought did not really understand what Pochettino did, the circumstances under which he did what he did, and what he was looking to do once Levy and him ‘made-up’ after June 1st 2019 (the debate over whether they should’ve parted ways then is a far more interesting discussion IMO).
But again…Sissoko and Winks…

 

[thfcsteff]

I’m not trying to free hit at Frank, I’m just calling it as I see it. It might not be universal on this board but so many of the people that are actually positive about Frank’s prospects are also the ones saying the squad isn’t very good and can’t be expected to play better football. To be clear, i think I’ve gone some way to trying to explain what I think Frank is trying to do. I think I could consider myself fairly Frank positive. But I don’t feel like I have to talk down the quality of the squad to do it. I think he deserves time because any good manager deserves time. And there are so many examples of clubs showing a bit of patience at the start of a tenure and reaping the rewards months or years down the line. For Spurs to not have the most money I think we have no other option to do exactly that. If Frank isn’t the right one, we can evaluate at the end of season one or two. But I’m not trying to take a shot at Frank.

I just think it’s interesting that all of these players hit their potential and performed at an elite level, all at the same time, under Poch. I think taking away Poch’s achievement in doing that is to excuse away the idea that a manager can actually have such a transformative impact. I believe they can. Yes the club did work to bring these players in, but they are precisely the players we have to take punts on because we can’t afford the finished articles. Same as now. I actually think there’s a chance that Frank’s method gets us to a good place too. But I find it interesting that people are like ‘Solanke being out means we can’t do XYZ’ when he’s been replaced by a World Cup finalist, French international who went for almost 100m not too long ago and performed well for Juventus last season. I just think this talking down of the squad options we have is excusing Frank. And I don’t think Frank needs the excuse.

I think Frank has good options. And I think his method is to make decisions that will pay off over the course of a season. So I’m waiting to see how it all plays out. But Poch’s Kane back up in his first full season was Vincent Janssen. So let’s not act like Frank doesn’t have good options at his disposal.

Is it that people cannot accept that Frank wants us to be a counter-attacking side full-stop, and are genuinely of the belief that once he gets Deki and Solanke back that he will suddenly unfurl a new style of play? I don’t know anymore, only that it’s getting as tedious as last season!!!

 

[metalgear]

Get halfway into building a team suited for counter attacking football then change the manager flip flopping to one with a different style?

its not just the manager but a club philosophy through the player age groups, recruitment and coaching.
there has always been a huge gap between what the manager wants/is suited for and the players we bring in.

i think lahnge will prove a huge mistake eventually, shifting our focus to youths when we are uncompetitive with Chelseas hoovering up the best.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Is it that people cannot accept that Frank wants us to be a counter-attacking side full-stop, and are genuinely of the belief that once he gets Deki and Solanke back that he will suddenly unfurl a new style of play? I don’t know anymore, only that it’s getting as tedious as last season!!!

This is what it seems like to me. And as I tried to say a couple of pages ago, I’d almost understand it if the players we were missing were Bellingham and Mbappe. So the level would just go up so much that it would change our outlook entirely. But I don’t think that’s what we’re dealing with. Deki may well be the most incisive passer we have on a marginal basis. But we have people arguing that Xavi actually isn’t a creative passer and I’ve seen tons of examples of him playing through balls, between the lines, in the half spaces etc. Just not at Spurs. Because we’ve apparently played a league-low amount of through balls since Frank joined!

And that’s the point I’d want to emphasise. If people start to base their opinion on what Xavi is capable of, based on what they’ve seen so far, and then make the case that Frank can’t possibly be expected to get more out of that player, I’d really respectfully ask people to look at how that player is being deployed here versus how they were deployed at their previous clubs.

 

[metalgear]

Is it that people cannot accept that Frank wants us to be a counter-attacking side full-stop, and are genuinely of the belief that once he gets Deki and Solanke back that he will suddenly unfurl a new style of play? I don’t know anymore, only that it’s getting as tedious as last season!!!

no i think spurs fans want exciting football with risk taking up front. the only reason richy is not getting lots of jeering is because he still puts in worldies from time to time. for a long time we always had that special player - son, kane, bale, dele, erikson, modric, berbatov, sheringham etc . to provide special moments. feels like we are back to the meh years pre-redknapp where we were a retirement home for PL players and sheringham as captain. i don't know if TF understands the long history here, because if he does, he would build the team around kudus - our most exciting attacking player right now, and think of something else when the injured stars are back

 

[Mabspurs]

Is it that people cannot accept that Frank wants us to be a counter-attacking side full-stop, and are genuinely of the belief that once he gets Deki and Solanke back that he will suddenly unfurl a new style of play? I don’t know anymore, only that it’s getting as tedious as last season!!!

If he wants us to be a counter-attacking side - full stop - he would not have sold Johnson and definitely not bought Kudus.

But I guess since he came from Brentford he is hell bent at making us a Brentford 2.0......

 

[thfcsteff]

If he wants us to be a counter-attacking side - full stop - he would not have sold Johnson and definitely not bought Kudus.

…in which case I wonder why he didn’t ever try Kudus as a 10 (or even forward) and Johnson wide? He has essentially decided that Kudus and Johnson are competing for the same one position and forced one out the door because he doesn’t ‘fit’ the plan? I’d have thought if you had other ideas on how to attack/create/deploy your attacking players, you’d have kept them both until such a time that an incredible upgrade comes along (in fairness maybe one is coming). BTW, who plays there if Kudus gets hurt (again, in fairness, maybe we’re going to address that with an addition that Frank likes more)?

 

[Mabspurs]

We hahe a pretty good squad, it shouldn’t win the title, but it should compete for the European places. Nothing is usually as terrible or as amazing as it can seem after pockets of form here and there. Just judge things over a longer time horizon, appreciate all the context, and I think the discussion will be better for it.

Frank has a good squad and should finish in the top 6 and vastly improve our game from where it is right now. If he doesn't get any of the 2 done by the end of the season we should sack him. I think a great manager would be right up there with Aston Villa with our squad.

I do think Frank had inherited a good squad.

I have asked this twice now.... with still no takers.

Other than the two centre halves, which player in our current squad would be snapped up by one of the current top 5 teams if he was made available tomorrow at a decent price specifically to be an immediate first 11 starter?

 

[Mabspurs]

no i think spurs fans want exciting football with risk taking up front.

Really? I want to see trophies in West Atrium... even if it means a dire, unexciting, performance like the ones in Bilbao or Leverkusen. And judging by the attendance in the parade, I don't seem to be the only one....

 

[parj]

Jol tool us from mid table obscurity to two top 5 finishes with a first real sense of breaking the top 4 ceiling. Bloke was the first through the wall in what was progression. Respect should always be put on his name

I'm not being disrespectful in any way. I was talking about expectations shifting to UCL. Jol started going back to our football philosophy and showing it can work. That showed that any manager wanting to play football can do it, regardless of the squad.

The reason I don't keep him in the conversation is because if we can say Poch cause us problems, then Jol and Redknapp didn't exactly win us anything either. But those three managers are probably the ones that united the fan base behind how we should play - and more importantly, taught us we should not be appreciative of top 8 finish.

 

[harr1984]

I have asked this twice now.... with still no takers.

Other than the two centre halves, which player in our current squad would be snapped up by one of the current top 5 teams if he was made available tomorrow at a decent price specifically to be an immediate first 11 starter?

Maybe no one has answered because it's a pointless question to ask. Do you want me to go through a list of all the players top 5 clubs have signed who were laughed at by others/not rated? Most people aren't even suggesting we should automatically be top 5 without the manager actually doing a very good job.

More to the point, no one has said we don't want/need better players. The point being we have talent with players who can play football - From Gray to Bergvall to Bentancur to Kudus to Xavi to Kolo Muani and Richi who can finish if we actually create chances. We can play better football than we have done with the players we have, and there is clear instruction/intent not to be progressive with the ball.

The stats are everywhere and this is what people have a problem with and it's a legitimate complaint no matter what questions you want to dream up to deflect the issue.....

 

[parj]

I have asked this twice now.... with still no takers.

Other than the two centre halves, which player in our current squad would be snapped up by one of the current top 5 teams if he was made available tomorrow at a decent price specifically to be an immediate first 11 starter?

Firstly, a top 5 team wouldn't target players to keep them a top 5 team. They look for better to go on to win the title.

Udogie
Romero
VDV
Porro
Spence
Kulu
Bergvall
Bentancur
Johnson (snapped up for £35m by a team ahead of us, 3pts off top 5, and that finished of us last season)
Simons

You might say no, but now look at arsenal and think back to when they weren't at arsenal.... The following players were not top 5 players until they took a punt on them -Arteta made them work:
Rice
Eze
Gyokeres
Odegaard - do you think real Madrid would have sold this version of odegaard?
Madueke
Trossard
Nordgaard
White
Kepa
Raya (people questioned why they signed him when they had Ramsdale)

How you might say Poch had players to win the league.... Then why did only Kane and Walker end up at a truly top team? The answer is simple, we had good players in a position when good players in those positions were readily available.