Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[thfcsteff]

LOL is right.

The narrative from those who didn’t want Ange sacked is hilarious. We are moving forwards! Let it go

I suppose it’s how modern life works. Comparisons all the time. No two situations share all the same charactaristics, so it all becomes an ‘academic ramble’. We’re all guilty from time to time, me most certainly included!

 

[thfcsteff]

is there a bit of a tendency just to look to at one-off games like Forest and draw sweeping conclusions? You wouldn’t want Dyche over Frank or you wouldn’t identify Dyche as a manager of quality who could lead a top club. If you agree, then it’s just about giving him enough time.

Frank is great for people who like reactive, pragmatic coaches. He keeps on saying (when asked about style and approach) that no two games are the same, suggesting he has a different approach for each game tailored to what he expects to be dealing with. If you like proactive coaches, those who predominantly look to impress their identity on matches -with respectful observation of where the oppos threats are - then this is going to be a hard journey.

 

[metalgear]

Ange’s football was never going to work here. He wasn’t doing anything novel or unique — I’ve seen the same ideas many times — and it requires key components he was simply never going to get at Spurs. A high-pressure, heavy-possession, intricate-passing system demands a calibre of player that just isn’t present in this squad.

Even last season I said we were basically trying to play Barcelona football with far inferior players. Give Ange City’s squad or Klopp’s Liverpool and I think he’d do very well. Those players have, at a minimum, the technique required to attempt his system, which realistically needs the very best of the elite to function at the highest level. Instead, he was trying to play intricate short-passing football with players like Johnson, Richarlison and Solanke. That was never going to work. The level of technique, intelligence and finesse simply isn’t there — and even Barcelona under Flick suffer huge exposure when their finishing drops, despite being man-to-man levels better than we are.

So for me, it wasn’t more depth that Ange needed. His starting XI was nowhere near what his system required. It needed a massive overhaul, with technically adept players across most starting positions. That was never going to happen, so what was actually required was an adaptation of his ideals. In truth, the only players who matched his requirements were Romero and VDV.

That’s why I’m not surprised by the lack of quality this season — it’s always been there. It's why you don’t see me tearing my hair out or overly bemoaning Frank yet, because what I’m seeing broadly matches what I’ve always thought. Ange’s kamikaze system simply masked those issues in an attacking sense. Without Kane and Son, we’re distinctly meh.

I understand the glass-half-full argument that things can just click, but ultimately it always comes down to player quality. A great coach can coax extraordinary things out of players with potential, but that baseline quality has to exist in the first place. No coach is turning Lamela into Messi or Dawson into Baresi.

100% with you.

Ange was getting bamboozled tactically and could not find a way out.

Frank has already implemented some very logical changes. However there is still a performance gap. I am unsure how much of it is coaching and how much of it is players but it is clear that too many players are weak by EPL top 5 standards - Vicario, Porro, Johnson, Richarlison, Odobert, Simons - many are first eleven candidates and in a team like Liverpool you have only 1 (wirtz). For once I see NO FEAR from oppoents when they play us. They just know how to bully our players in every game.

 

[metalgear]

Frank is great for people who like reactive, pragmatic coaches. He keeps on saying (when asked about style and approach) that no two games are the same, suggesting he has a different approach for each game tailored to what he expects to be dealing with. If you like proactive coaches, those who predominantly look to impress their identity on matches -with respectful observation of where the oppos threats are - then this is going to be a hard journey.

well the opposite is nuno or conte or mourinho who have distinct styles and systems.
while frank says the team is in transition, i see Frank himself as being in transition.
we can't attract good players until we are comfortably top ten, and we can't attract the best players until we are comfortably top 6.

so we need frank now to steady the ship - consolidate the playing identity (that ange destroyed) and hope the injury issues abate and young ones step up.

 

[thfcsteff]

As well as probably being the best team in the competition, we had also given up competing in our domestic league at the business end of the EL. That scenario is not acceptable this season. We're expected to be competitive in both the League and CL

I will boldly predict that if somehow Thomas’ Tottenham find themselves in the last 8 of the CL, yet 15th or 16th in the PL but with a 15 point cushion between us and the bottom three, absolutely no-one would have a single issue with trying the same thing twice, especially with a manager that puts huge stock in ‘per game per opponent’ specialist preparation.
I am not, BTW, saying that I disagree with you. It’s just lightning in a bottle malarky!

(Caveat - I am not mad enough to believe that this scenario could happen…or could it?)

 

[Robspur12]

I will boldly predict that if somehow Thomas’ Tottenham find themselves in the last 8 of the CL, yet 15th or 16th in the PL but with a 15 point cushion between us and the bottom three, absolutely no-one would have a single issue with trying the same thing twice, especially with a manager that puts huge stock in ‘per game per opponent’ specialist preparation.
I am not, BTW, saying that I disagree with you. It’s just lightning in a bottle malarky!

(Caveat - I am not mad enough to believe that this scenario could happen…or could it?)

I don't want to turn this into an Ange thread, but I can't think of any team that gave up on the league as early as we did last season. And we don't really know what went on behind the scenes but the fact that despite winning a trophy he didn't hold on to his job, speaks volumes for how the club felt about what was going on last season..

Edit: I doubt TF would give up on the League as early as we did last year.

 

[parj]

Frank is great for people who like reactive, pragmatic coaches. He keeps on saying (when asked about style and approach) that no two games are the same, suggesting he has a different approach for each game tailored to what he expects to be dealing with. If you like proactive coaches, those who predominantly look to impress their identity on matches -with respectful observation of where the oppos threats are - then this is going to be a hard journey.

Totally agree. This is where I will struggle. I really wanted Ange to work but I think he was way too gung ho and defensively naive. The closest we have had in a while that was proactive and wanted the ball was Poch. His weakness was he didn't have a plan B for teams sitting deep, which for me was a recruitment issue. But we were solid in defence, we had the ball, we just needed to be able to create more chances.

I don't like pragmatic football. For me, that's for teams who just want to survive. Don't care or Jose or Conte won titles at Chelsea doing it, that's the way Chelsea were set up. Defensively strong, hit on the counter. That for me is boring and required an insane amount of money to keep ensuring the best players were recruited for that system - and they ruined plenty of players doing it.

Arsenal, City, and Liverpool have shown if you back playing real football, and slowly reinforce, you get the style working. Yea city have spent, but arsenal and Liverpool weren't that crazy in spending.

 

[Muttley]

Frank is great for people who like reactive, pragmatic coaches. He keeps on saying (when asked about style and approach) that no two games are the same, suggesting he has a different approach for each game tailored to what he expects to be dealing with. If you like proactive coaches, those who predominantly look to impress their identity on matches -with respectful observation of where the oppos threats are - then this is going to be a hard journey.

I think you've labelled Frank way too early, as if he cannot be a different Spurs manager to the one we saw at Brentford.

Pragmatism is proaction. You build your proactive football philosophy into your squad and then you tweak game for game based on what opposition you face. Proactive is the ability to switch for the game and within the game for me and we've not seen enough of it at Spurs. It's tweaking to the opposition strengths and weaknesses but also keeping your philosophy intact. That can't happen quickly.

There is no better example than winners like Pep and Klopp who did this year after year. The big test for Frank is to figure out when he feels he has the quality to take the handbrake off a little and let the opposition worry more about us than we worry about them. That's the luxury that Pep and Klopp had eventually. With Pep and Klopp, they made major tactical changes in the big CL games or top of the table clashes. They let the relegation fodder worry about them and made barely any tweaks to their own go-to system of play. Then there were minor tweaks in between for the clubs, even like us, who they feared less. I bet Pep wished he'd made more tweaks against us to be fair. Better in-game management.

We're just not that far yet with Frank or his squad to make the assumption about him that he won't manage differently at Spurs in the way you say. We hired him on the potential to build something and that can't happen in 6 months. I've talked about this a lot but conceding over 60 goals for 3 seasons becomes a disease. It's a nasty habit that Frank is trying to break because he know we'll never be anything with that type of defensive record. 6 clean sheets (a third) in the PL is an improvement. At the half way point we've conceded 23 goals and that is a considerable improvement. I think we're 8th on both goals for and against in the league. Feels about right.

Personally, I'll take the pain to get the gain. I hope he keeps studying the opposition and being pragmatic game to game in this phase. I hope he obsesses about keeping the ball out of our own net. It will teach the players a lot to go through this process. Then we'll find out eventually whether your assumption is true or not. Even if it is, doesn't mean we can't play exhilarating football and win trophies even if we are tweaking game to game.

 

[Robspur12]

We hired him on the potential to build something and that can't happen in 6 months. I've talked about this a lot but conceding over 60 goals for 3 seasons becomes a disease. It's a nasty habit that Frank is trying to break because he know we'll never be anything with that type of defensive record. 6 clean sheets (a third) in the PL is an improvement. At the half way point we've conceded 23 goals and that is a considerable improvement. I think we're 8th on both goals for and against in the league. Feels about right.

Great post Muttley. This data along with the rotation of players between games shows that we are moving in the right direction under TF and why I am supporting him so strongly atm, and it's not because I supported getting rid of Ange.

I can see what he is trying to achieve and I am willing to accept the inconsistency for the time being. And it's interesting when posters say they can't see what style TF is trying to implement. A lot of that is true currently. But the data points to making us more defensively solid and reducing the likelihood of muscle injuries. That makes total sense, when a new manager starts. Work on those things that held us back last year.

TF also needs to build the confidence of his players who, in my opinion, have looked hesitant and have shown quality only in short bursts.

I do think that our League form last season is party contributing to this lack of confidence. Common sense says "How can it not?" Players hate losing, even non elite players don't like it. If you are losing every week then players are less willing to take risks. They hold onto the ball for seconds longer rather than release it and the chance has gone. And that psychology filters even to new players who are looking to impress their new manager and teammates. Obviously the situation is more complex but I can't rule out last season's league form in influencing this season's, (at least, in part).

I notice when something goes against us ATM we tend to fold. I am not confident that if we go behind in a game that we will pull it back. That kind of resilience will need to be rebuilt. We have had it in the past but it's not there at the moment.

Yes our football is not passing the "eye-test" at the moment. It's hard to argue with that. But I think we need to give TF time to sort that side out. His priority appears to be making us hard to beat.

 

[Finney Is Back]

is there a bit of a tendency just to look to at one-off games like Forest and draw sweeping conclusions? You wouldn’t want Dyche over Frank or you wouldn’t identify Dyche as a manager of quality who could lead a top club. If you agree, then it’s just about giving him enough time.

No, I've been to all of our home games bar one and most of the away games. Would I want Dyche over Frank? I wouldn't really be bothered either way to be honest. I think Dyche's record is no worse than Frank's (Watford's highest league finish for 4 years in his one season there, then a 2nd place finish and promotion in his first season at Burnley when they were considered relegation candidates that year. They went straight back down but he got them up again as champions at the first attempt, he then kept them in the PL and even got them into the Europa League via a 7th place finish. I'd say that performance is on par with Frank's and it may well be that Dyche is less negative than Frank in the way he sets up his team as well.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Well firstly I’m not going to count / judge whatever his press was after the City away game last year because he shifted to something completely different. Before the ridiculous injuries though it was certainly a ‘we never stop’ attempt versus Frank’s picking specific moments. But I think in the period where we actually pressed high more often than not we put in many good performances against good teams. Without being in the tactical meetings ourselves we can’t know the nuances of what he asked of specific players on a game by game basis but I’m sure at the elite level there was some nuance. Not arguing it wasn’t more intense that Frank’s though, more consistently applied.

If I can summarise: a high defensive line and never stop running after the ball. I never saw anything more nuanced than that and you’ve not outlined anything more nuanced either.

 

[Finney Is Back]

If I can summarise: a high defensive line and never stop running after the ball. I never saw anything more nuanced than that and you’ve not outlined anything more nuanced either.

So you didn't watch us playing mostly mid to low block in the games against Man Utd and Brentford that basically secured our place in the PL for this season and also in the away game against Frankfurt and against Man Utd in the Europa League final?

 

[SpurMeUp]

Frank is great for people who like reactive, pragmatic coaches. He keeps on saying (when asked about style and approach) that no two games are the same, suggesting he has a different approach for each game tailored to what he expects to be dealing with. If you like proactive coaches, those who predominantly look to impress their identity on matches -with respectful observation of where the oppos threats are - then this is going to be a hard journey.

Is a glass half full or empty. There’s a number of posters who were pro Ange that are superficially backing Frank whilst totally undermining him! Don’t you see that backing a manager and giving them time means exactly that?? Not constantly being negative about them, the way they work, and building negative narratives.

As for the detail of your post is nonsense - with respect. Every successful manager adapts! You’re maybe still stuck in Ange mode here too. Look at someone like Simone at Athleti - a very defined set way of playing. Or so you think. His team now players a very different way to when he stared. The core perhaps and ethics are the same but he’s adapted. Guardiola - constantly changing and developing never getting stuck with rigid moves so others can counter it. Ferguson - always developing new sides around specific players. You’re whole premise is flawed truth be told.

 

[SpurMeUp]

So you didn't watch us playing mostly mid to low block in the games against Man Utd and Brentford that basically secured our place in the PL for this season and also in the away game against Frankfurt and against Man Utd in the Europa League final?

Finney what you on about

Let’s recap shall we? We were taking about Anges press being ‘school-yard’ like. Which BOL took offence to. Ange was forced into ditching it and playing with our backs to the wall to get the Europa done. Possibly due to a player backlash.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Is a glass half full or empty. There’s a number of posters who were pro Ange that are superficially backing Frank whilst totally undermining him! Don’t you see that backing a manager and giving them time means exactly that?? Not constantly being negative about them, the way they work, and building negative narratives.

As for the detail of your post is nonsense - with respect. Every successful manager adapts! You’re maybe still stuck in Ange mode here too. Look at someone like Simone at Athleti - a very defined set way of playing. Or so you think. His team now players a very different way to when he stared. The core perhaps and ethics are the same but he’s adapted. Guardiola - constantly changing and developing never getting stuck with rigid moves so others can counter it. Ferguson - always developing new sides around specific players. You’re whole premise is flawed truth be told.

I don't think a few people saying they don't like Frank's style of football on a message board 'undermines' him at all. Personally, I would also say that those who backed Ange on here are likely to be in the upper percentile for those with patience on this message board. If you get upset with people stating that they don't like a manager's style of football or struggle to see what type of team it is that he is trying to build then that's your problem as opposed to the people making those comments.

Every manager in the game that stays at a club for more than a couple of years has to develop new sides around different specific players. They do first have to earn the right to get more than a couple of years at the club however. I'm not very convinced at all that Frank will earn that right at Spurs, if the quality of football and the performances at home do not improve then I can only see the crowd getting on his back and the owners jettisoning him.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Finney what you on about

Let’s recap shall we? We were taking about Anges press being ‘school-yard’ like. Which BOL took offence to. Ange was forced into ditching it and playing with our backs to the wall to get the Europa done. Possibly due to a player backlash.

"If I can summarise: a high defensive line and never stop running after the ball. I never saw anything more nuanced than that and you’ve not outlined anything more nuanced either."

Not my comments mate, but yours!

We stopped playing a very high 'all in' press part way through the season, I think when our injury problems really started to take hold. We still played an occasional, situational press and when we did press we tended to do it properly, going man for man. However, as the season progressed we did less of it and played more mid-block type football.

Did Ange have a preference for high energy, fast, high pressing football? Absolutely. Did he only play that way and do nothing else? Absolutely not. If you think otherwise then I kind of wonder how much and how actively you actually watched us?

 

[SpurMeUp]

I don't think a few people saying they don't like Frank's style of football on a message board 'undermines' him at all. Personally, I would also say that those who backed Ange on here are likely to be in the upper percentile for those with patience on this message board. If you get upset with people stating that they don't like a manager's style of football or struggle to see what type of team it is that he is trying to build then that's your problem as opposed to the people making those comments.

Every manager in the game that stays at a club for more than a couple of years has to develop new sides around different specific players. They do first have to earn the right to get more than a couple of years at the club however. I'm not very convinced at all that Frank will earn that right at Spurs, if the quality of football and the performances at home do not improve then I can only see the crowd getting on his back and the owners jettisoning him.

…when your own think you’re doomed and bad mouth you, is it any wonder?

Frank has to deal with missing key creative players and the 12th man - his own ‘supporters’.

 

[tommysvr]

…when your own think you’re doomed and bad mouth you, is it any wonder?

Frank has to deal with missing key creative players and the 12th man - his own ‘supporters’.

And Ange and Nuno had fans singing “you don’t know what you’re doing” during games.

 

[SpurMeUp]

"If I can summarise: a high defensive line and never stop running after the ball. I never saw anything more nuanced than that and you’ve not outlined anything more nuanced either."

Not my comments mate, but yours!

We stopped playing a very high 'all in' press part way through the season, I think when our injury problems really started to take hold. We still played an occasional, situational press and when we did press we tended to do it properly, going man for man. However, as the season progressed we did less of it and played more mid-block type football.

Did Ange have a preference for high energy, fast, high pressing football? Absolutely. Did he only play that way and do nothing else? Absolutely not. If you think otherwise then I kind of wonder how much and how actively you actually watched us?

We both know the reality here. Let’s not get off of reality trying to prove a point.

Ange had one way of playing - until he had to change it maybe under pressure from players - see VDVs interview. Trying to claim that his press had any nuance and tactical dexterity to it because Ange was busted, is a little far fetched.

This is no criticism of Ange, one of the biggest compliments we can give him is he did what it took to win. I am glad we stuck with him. Just about, we got it done. But his press resembled a school yard game of football, sometimes you’d see multiple players closing the same man, as you’d see in a playground because there wasn’t coordination. It was ‘sprint to close the ball down at all cost’. And that cost was a room full of injured players.

 

[Raziel]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it but Frank had Toney and Mbeumo as regular goal scorers at Brentford a luxury he's not had here. The whole game changes when you have someone who worries your opponents, we should have realised that after watching Kane carry us for so long.

Mbeumo wasn't the Mbeumo we know until Frank, too lazy to dig up Toney's record but fair to say his best years were under Frank.

That is part of people's criticism right now, how is he making Richi, RKM, Tel, Odobert, Kudus, Johnson, Xavi better?
- Looks like he's outright given up on Tel & Johnson (100M worth of players)
- Odobert is now a bit part player
- Kudus is getting worse
- We don't play to Richi's strengths
- RKM looks the best of them but isn't getting in the goals
- Xavi was in/out/in?

It's pretty bad that Frank can't seem to get the best out of anyone in our front line, that we can't adjust (for somehow who's entire philosophy was sold as being adjustable/pragmatic) to make even one of them hit top form?

Honestly Frank's biggest achievement for the season seems to have been keeping Richi, VDV & Romero fit