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Thomas Frank - Head Coach

I still have faith in Frank even if some fans think he is not good enough. However as i have said elsewhere his set up of the team against the ARSE in the first half was awful and i really, really hope he never does that again. As most of those who know me here and at matches i have said many times that sacking managers every couple of years is self defeating and our recent history of doing so shows how pointless it is, IMO.

We are NOT a good side and have not been so for a while now and the longer we keep changing managers every couple of seasons will not change that. I know some will disagree with that but our recent history since POOCH left shows that.
 
parklane1 said:
I still have faith in Frank even if some fans think he is not good enough. However as i have said elsewhere his set up of the team against the ARSE in the first half was awful and i really, really hope he never does that again. As most of those who know me here and at matches i have said many times that sacking managers every couple of years is self defeating and our recent history of doing so shows how pointless it is, IMO.

We are NOT a good side and have not been so for a while now and the longer we keep changing managers every couple of seasons will not change that. I know some will disagree with that but our recent history since POOCH left shows that.
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Personally the selection against Arsenal didn’t concern me. I was interested to see how it could work, and was excited to try and catch them out like we did PSG. I thought selecting for height made sense, and I believed we could do something.

But…setting up like that and allowing that first goal to be conceded. One pass breaks down a back 5. Players clearly didn’t get it, and it’s on them for the lack of communication / concentration. It’s such a bad goal to concede.

I’m more concerned with the fact though that in possession we had no plan to get out. Arsenal clearly did a great job, but we need to compete in these games. We held firm quite well for half an hour, but eventually something broke. And simply put we need a better plan for getting the ball forward. Whether we’ve played 5, 4 or 3 at the back we just haven’t seen that enough. Whatever shape we play, that’s where the coaching concern comes in. Or rather not that Frank is a bad coach, but that something is not clicking with the players. Either they’re resistant to the ideas, not understanding the ideas, or just not as confident in them yet and are therefore less intense on and off ball.

I’m really not trying to be a huge Frank critic. But it is plainly obvious that the attacking output is BAD and way beyond the level that would be explained by it being the quality of the players.
 
billyiddo said:
No, the opposite, I'm saying that's the only real position we are selecting the more defensive option available (vs the claim we are doing so in every position)

The 4 attackers is in reference to how we have been trying to use Xavi centrally - that has seen a switch from 433 (Xavi off the left) to 4231 - that's not working because our CM options aren't able to take on full ball progression responsibilities by themselves alongside a pure destroyer like Palinha and Xavi is not really a playmaker no.10 who will link midfield with attack (ala Maddison or Eriksen) so we're left with a disconnect between midfield & attack.
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IF we play Xavi off the left, it is imperative we play Udogie at LB and allow Xavi to drift into pockets and connect with others. He is not a left-winger, and I hope we can divorce ourselves from being a side who only appear to want to build chance creation via crosses. Bergvall is no Maddison or Eriksen, but he is absolutely a carrier who can progress the ball with attacking and front-foot intent. He has personality and he wants the ball every single time. I put Gray in a similar frame, albeit more the calmer approach.

What I will add about Xavi is that I think he 'could' be a playmaker until we sign another (if we ever do), he has shown the positional sense and shape to be there, but every time he recieves the ball in those positions/any position actually, he is inevitably finding that he is leading a charge with no-one to pass to ahead of him rather than being able to look up and see runners and support. Until we address the intent with which we play, until we actually do what Frank repeatedly says we're trying to do, this won't change. I am beginning to feel gaslit by him LOL...
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
Personally the selection against Arsenal didn’t concern me. I was interested to see how it could work, and was excited to try and catch them out like we did PSG. I thought selecting for height made sense, and I believed we could do something.

But…setting up like that and allowing that first goal to be conceded. One pass breaks down a back 5. Players clearly didn’t get it, and it’s on them for the lack of communication / concentration. It’s such a bad goal to concede.

I’m more concerned with the fact though that in possession we had no plan to get out. Arsenal clearly did a great job, but we need to compete in these games. We held firm quite well for half an hour, but eventually something broke. And simply put we need a better plan for getting the ball forward. Whether we’ve played 5, 4 or 3 at the back we just haven’t seen that enough. Whatever shape we play, that’s where the coaching concern comes in. Or rather not that Frank is a bad coach, but that something is not clicking with the players. Either they’re resistant to the ideas, not understanding the ideas, or just not as confident in them yet and are therefore less intense on and off ball.

I’m really not trying to be a huge Frank critic. But it is plainly obvious that the attacking output is BAD and way beyond the level that would be explained by it being the quality of the players.
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I’m gonna make a guess
And it comes from talking to coaches and people in the game plus listening to a lot of pods casts
I think he is overloading the players and they dont get it
The basics for any new manager with a new team take time
The change was different but the players didnt seem to get it
Yet…. The majority had played in that system before so it wasn’t new
If people don’t understand you the tend to not do what you want them too
Ange IMO didn’t have enough coaches
Frank seems to have twice as many and we look less coached
 
thfcsteff said:
IF we play Xavi off the left, it is imperative we play Udogie at LB and allow Xavi to drift into pockets and connect with others. He is not a left-winger, and I hope we can divorce ourselves from being a side who only appear to want to build chance creation via crosses. Bergvall is no Maddison or Eriksen, but he is absolutely a carrier who can progress the ball with attacking and front-foot intent. He has personality and he wants the ball every single time. I put Gray in a similar frame, albeit more the calmer approach.

What I will add about Xavi is that I think he 'could' be a playmaker until we sign another (if we ever do), he has shown the positional sense and shape to be there, but every time he recieves the ball in those positions/any position actually, he is inevitably finding that he is leading a charge with no-one to pass to ahead of him rather than being able to look up and see runners and support. Until we address the intent with which we play, until we actually do what Frank repeatedly says we're trying to do, this won't change. I am beginning to feel gaslit by him LOL...
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Nuno did the same thing of saying one thing and the team doing the opposite
Weird right
Almost as if they don’t get it as players
 
The risk thing is key
He has players he trusts … bentacur is one I’ve heard that all managers trust
He isn’t a risk taking player and that’s fine
But trust and risk don’t go together very well
Trust is reliability
Risk has potential for different outcomes
 
Bishop said:
I think your vision is a little idealistic and isn't how things will actually play out. If you're playing a destroyer like Palhinha there is no real reason to also play an additional CB in a 3. You've essentially go that extra defensive body in both the midfield and CB area already and are just duplicating tasks and attributes. It would make more sense if playing a 3 to pair say Sarr and Bergvall because the idea is for the 3rd CB to step into midfield and cover the gaps but with the pitch in front of them. Again I'll say I'm not a fan of the system period as it removes a midfielder and nearly always makes you lose the midfield against a halfway competent side unless you have the key specialists to play the system correctly. We clear don't so it's something that should be reserved only for the very most special of occasions.
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Errr...I agree? I am arguing against Sarr/Palhlinha in many ways.
 
harr1984 said:
And when the style improves we will all be enjoying it and praising it. But when we play crap after the game posters are going to say it was crap, I'm not sure what is meant to be said or why it's a big deal to say as such? And it only keeps being repeated because game after game it's been negative lack of imagination football....
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Does no-one else just feel like simply doing this...?

I'm not going to moan
I'm not going to happy clap

I'm just going to watch
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Nuno did the same thing of saying one thing and the team doing the opposite
Weird right
Almost as if they don’t get it as players
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I think we’re in a funny spot as a club where we have players that have too much belief in themselves to want to be overly coached, and yet not quite enough quality to just be left to run the game as they see fit like under Ancelotti. Which is why I feel we oscillate between these different styles of coaches trying to find the right balance.

It’s why I think Poch was just so right for us. There was enough off ball structure to give us something of a strategy that could negate the financial disadvantage we had, but enough freedom in possession to let players do what they knew they could do well. It perfectly suited the culture of the club.

I think you’re absolutely right that there is some resistance to Frank’s ideas. It might not even be deliberate, the players may well be earnestly trying to put them into practice. But it shouldn’t be like this.
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
I think we’re in a funny spot as a club where we have players that have too much belief in themselves to want to be overly coached, and yet not quite enough quality to just be left to run the game as they see fit like under Ancelotti. Which is why I feel we oscillate between these different styles of coaches trying to find the right balance.

It’s why I think Poch was just so right for us. There was enough off ball structure to give us something of a strategy that could negate the financial disadvantage we had, but enough freedom in possession to let players do what they knew they could do well. It perfectly suited the culture of the club.

I think you’re absolutely right that there is some resistance to Frank’s ideas. It might not even be deliberate, the players may well be earnestly trying to put them into practice. But it shouldn’t be like this.
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Yep
It’s a balance needed
I don’t know how you do it
Redknapp did it
Poch did it
I think it’s works better with younger players but that’s an assumption
I do think whatever approach you take you need to convince people
Ange said this works, here’s the trophies
Conte said this works… here’s the trophies (even bigger ones)
Poch couldn’t show them that but he clearly did something
Frank can’t really show them anything either so I don’t know how he convinces them
 
As ever appreciate the discussion, answers below...

glorygloryeze said:
I think i DO see your point.
However, I believe that it isn't a simple thing though, e.g. we all celebrated winning in May in Bilbao and didn't care if we played like Stoke in the second half to do so. I think there is a time and place to look at the 'style' of how we are playing. Not sure that 12 league games in is fair to do so as much as we are,
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A very fair point. I am trying desperately to be my usual calmer more rational self. The problem is I simply don't like the style/direction I am seeing, and find myself hoping he will move closer to what I want this football club to play like.


glorygloryeze said:
given that last season around this time when there was a longer body of poor work from Ange you were saying that you felt the pressure was getting to him/the players and wondered why no-one in the top hierarchy of the club was offering Ange more public support. Should Frank not be afforded the same care/support from our hierarchy or us as fans at this time now when he has had far less time at the club and having shown far less downturn thus far?
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Yes, you're again not wrong. I am trying exceptionally hard to avoid any comparisons with Ange, as I am trying to avoid getting into stats, etc which will start to show that we are actually not as good defensively (for example) as people might think we are this season. It is inarguable that Ange was left hanging out. And I agree, Frank should NEVER be put in this position.




glorygloryeze said:
Thanks. Very fair points.
To give Frank the benefit of SOME doubts on my part, I do suspect he was rather trying to deal with our recent injuries to make sure there were no further breakdowns given the upcoming fixtures (which are again thick and fast) and also wanting to shield some of the younger players who might not be quite ready to deal with the aftermath of such a game should things go pearshaped as they did (Odobert elsewhere is getting real stick for one).
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The same yoiung players who had to step in for two or three months last season because there was no choice? Again, what is the intent? Does it change from game to game? Are we going to keep going into some games to first not lose, keep it tight and try to nick a goal? I think that's reductive, and I further think it's unecessary. We might not have the best squad, but we have enough attacking talent to play with greater intent IMO, and even though we do not have Pirlo, Eriksen, Hoddle, etc, we have enough progressive potential to figure a style which allows us to use the middle of the pitch and play football as opposed to just banging it up the field or looking to go wide all the time.


glorygloryeze said:
Frank has shown he can have faith in many of our younger players: look how Tel has been tasked with leading the line, Bergvall has palyed a decent amount (in fact he started vs Chelsea). The lack of use of Grey up until now (outside of when he's been injured) is very odd though..
I suspect his gameplan for Sunday was to keep things tight before halftime and then bring on the likes of Xavi, Muani etc to have more of a threat second half. That first Eze goal i think killed his plans, the less said about what happened to such plans within 40 seconds of the restart the better!
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He got it wrong. That's clear. And I want to agree...but there was a moment which means I can't. After Richy's goal, there was -for a good 7-8 minutes- a palpable sense of anxiety around that place. Arteta looked edgy/picking a fight. We had more of the ball in that time than we'd had before or would have after. That was a moment to shift gears and take the game to them, perhaps make even more adventurous subs. Yet we continued at the same general pace, with no seeming 'plan B' in terms of how to take advantage of a potential moment. In fact, it seemed like that whole phase of time passed him by!
 
thfcsteff said:
I have laughed at how it looks like a tech conference sometimes!
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Well speaking of that

A quote

We had 53 situations where it was duels or second balls and we came out on top of 17 of those, lost 36

That’s him saying that. That’s number and maths.

A simple way though is we lost 2 of every 3 duels … that players will understand and digest that.

Straight away then if they win 2 out of 3 they have improved by a lot

Don’t treat them as intelligent, but treat them as experienced adults. That’s what I would do

Or try situation, complication, resolution

We didn’t win enough duals, because we weren’t quick or aggressive enough. Next time we have to be sharper to that part of the game

Here’s how we will fix it
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
Does no-one else just feel like simply doing this...?

I'm not going to moan
I'm not going to happy clap

I'm just going to watch
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That's where I am with Tottenham, have been for the last 18 months or so. Neither winning or losing changes my mood. We usually lose to the teams we 'should' lose to and usually beat the teams we 'should'.

In reality it's been that way all my supporting life, even in the Poch era, 1-1 with West Ham then losing 1-0 to Leicester were the most predictable Tottenham things ever.

The Champions League run was different, exciting, nerve shredding, elation, deflation the whole array of feelings, but mostly it's just flat.
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
I just don’t think having to rebuild the attack is the chief reason for what we are seeing to be honest. The stats you see in the post above mine, they are not because he’s had to replace 4 internationals with 4 other internationals. I think it’s something deeper. I’m not saying his system is inherently wrong or unworkable, but it clearly is not working as intended right now.

If he wanted to play more attacking football though, he would. Or not even ‘attacking football’, but some more patterns of play. I thought it was telling on that tactics video posted the other day, on the section about breaking down low blocks. His answer was about crosses. All well and good, but I think actually pretty insightful in terms of how he sees the game. It’s about numbers, put enough balls in with enough people arriving in the box, and eventually something will break our way.

I think the issue is actually we have a pretty terrible phase 2 in possession right now. Especially against good teams. So we aren’t even getting the opportunity to cross, or slip a pass into the half space, or anything.
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I agree with this. I think our midfield is being totally misused. It's low energy, high defensive with Palinha and Bentancur, but they are terrible at transitioning into attack.

We have Bergvall and Sarr sitting on the bench who provide energy. Sarr is a pressing machine,and Bergvall can transition the ball quickly.

We need a midfield pair of Palinha or Bentancur, and Bergvall or Sarr. Personally,I would prefer Bergvall and Sarr so that we can rush the opposition and force the ball longer into Romero and VDV, but they can also both move the ball quickly and allow us to transition into attack better than Bentancur and Palinha.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
Nah. More to just let Frank get on with it.

And in turn, get on with something else yourself.

Tbh there's not really much to discuss....
We are doing ok, points wise, in the league and CL. Style wise, we're way off.
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Yeah I agree with your assessment, and it is one of many discussions that has gone round in circles and will continue to do so until something gives.

But we both know fans are never going to just not comment and not have an opinion after every game, just the way the modern game is....
 
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