Bedfordspurs
Gary Lineker
It’s what makes them
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Mikey Moore
- Thread starter mjc23
- Start date
Of course he has to do the best with what he's got. I haven't followed Donley much, but some players perform differently under different managers and different setups. Apart from the division difference, Orient is an up'n cummer in League 1, while Stoke is down from Premier League. While not very recently, I would guess there is still a pretty visible difference in culture, expectations and even how they look at a loanee from the Premier League in those clubs. Perhaps Stoke reckons he needs a bit more drilling, that he isn't quite a good enough fit for their system yet. At the other end, I'd like to think that pretty much any PL loanee worth his salt would be a starter for most League 1 clubs and below.
But this is just speculation on my behalf.
Lemonade Money
Luka Modric
Name me a bad loan where the player has started all the games? It's about finding a club that's the best fit, rather than the 'best' club available, which is what we seem to do. A manager under pressure is never going to give a player the minutes they need to adapt (i.e. short term pain for long term gain), but if that player is a level above, they will. Like I said, I think we would be far better served giving our youth an 'easier' loan for a year to toughen up, then look for a loan to see what level they are capable of.
Grays_1890
Tommy Harmer
Haha so you only want to consider moves that have worked and not reflect on moves where someone has gone somewhere and not got game time despite it being great on paper? Right
No level of due diligence can foresee a manager under pressure, thats just ridiculous
Lemonade Money
Luka Modric
It's called learning from history.
The loans you are referring to that 'look good on paper' because they are a 'big' club, I don't think they do look good on paper, because it looks like we just went with the 'best' club in for the player.
It's also quite obvious if a manager was there last season doing a stable job, compared to someone who's just got the (high pressure) job for a club that's in turmoil. Is that ridiculous? Ironically, it looks to me like we have a 'no level of due diligence' policy.
It's also fairly obvious if that player is probably the best player for his position, he'll get game time, versus being up against a few senior pros who are probably better all told. And I'm only talking about a first year loan, to acclimatise to the physicality, rather than waste a year of development. Then the following year they can go for a loan that looks 'great on paper', but even then I think you can use a level of diligence.
K.D.D.D.D.Soc
Les Medley
It's a gamble wherever we send them. I think we need to ensure we can get them back quickly if it's not working.
Lemonade Money
Luka Modric
It is, but gambles have differing odds.
K.D.D.D.D.Soc
Les Medley
True but most gamblers lose in the long run.
Grays_1890
Tommy Harmer
No one sends someone on loan with the intention of the deck being stacked against them
You also have zero control on what happens once a player walks in the room ang human nature takes over
In terms of Rangers, there was nothing to suggest it would be as bad as it is, given that sure Martins job at Southampton ended badly but he was also a very well regarded manager who was poached from jobs twice before getting Southampton promoted
How do you judge whether a loan is bad? Not many players recently for us have gone from loan spells to being first team squad ready so there could be an argument that those loans have all been bad whether they have played regularly or otherwise.
Chrissivad
Pat van den Hauwe
Martin takes Rangers squad swimming in Loch Lomond
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/articles/c4g937e6wvdo
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/articles/c4g937e6wvdo
Lemonade Money
Luka Modric
I'm calling a loan where the player plays as good, and where he doesn't as bad.
That's not what I'm saying. I'm advocating loans that make them a 'decent loan' spell ready.
Grays_1890
Tommy Harmer
And for me I believe its as much about building players up mentally as it is physically, Moore will be a more grown up human being and therefore player having played for Rangers and all the pressures it brings
Chrissivad
Pat van den Hauwe
You need to change the player when they go out on loan, but they also need game time.
As Moore didn't get much game time last year, I do think it's more important this year he plays.
As Moore didn't get much game time last year, I do think it's more important this year he plays.
You asked to name a loan spell that was 'bad' where the player played every game - if you're setting the criteria as bad = not getting regular game time Vs good = getting regular game time then your question cannot be answered
That's a numbers game isn't it? If a lot of our (and every other top club's) players who went out on loan came back first team ready, there would be 100s of new PL players every year. A "sad" fact is that the playing field (no pun intended) has become so level, that there are other factors than sheer talent that decides who makes it or not - unless you're exceptional. Not many players are exceptional, most players have at best a thing or two that they're marginally better at than the average (which is high). And it's all about being visible, ifs and buts, and to be visible you have to get game time. At that age, one 30-yard Youtube screamer can make you a hype for years, while a bad spell can make you a League 1 player for life. The overreliance on stats rather than eyes even furthers this problem. Sissoko had a passing accuracy of 99,996%, but never made a useful forward pass in his entire Spurs career.
A tiiiiny bit exaggerated, but the difference between success and failure (as in not success) can be academical - and brutal.
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Lemonade Money
Luka Modric
I'm suggesting a loan to a League 1 or 2 team, is better than a loan to a Championship or SPL team, because they will get more game time versus sitting on a bench. Grays suggested that's not fool proof, but if you can't get regular playing time for a League 1 or 2 team, you're probably not going to make it.
If you sit on a bench for a Championship or SPL team, it's not done a lot for your development and it's a year wasted. So, playing for a League 1 or 2 team = good, sitting on the bench for a Championship or SPL team = bad (for their first loan only). Then, like Keeley and Abbott, teams will be willing to take them (and play them) based on what they've done, rather than potential.
I'm not saying it's cut or dried, just think it's a better route than gambling on whether a player will sink or swim at the 'best' club in for them, which like everyone is saying, could be down to other factors other than that players ability.