Ange in or out?

[ricky2tricky4city]

In my opinion, the answer to that lies in our history. If we’d won this — or any other trophy — more regularly, no. But it’s 41 years since a European trophy. Only 5 English teams have ever won it. Arsenal, for all their success over the years, have never won it.

I also think to allow the league form or a personal dislike of Ange to take any gloss of what winning the Europa League should mean is a huge missed opportunity as a fan. Who knows when we’ll be back here?

Just need to forget about the manager good/bad situation until after the Brighton game (I know it's harder for you as you've been deep in this discussion for months).

To everyone, you don't need that colouring what is a massive, rare as hens teeth, night out for us in a European final....what you need to bring, to colour that night, is all your own history into that game...not just all the blood, sweat and tears but the love you've poured into this club. There is a chance for repayment with unique memories, shared amongst others that have done those same hard miles down the years.

Zero point letting your thoughts on the manager tarnish that. How silly would that be when he probably won't be here in a month?

 

[thfcsteff]

Continued...

I think it is fair to say that when it comes to Poch, I have always been one of his fiercest supporters. When the decision to sack him was made, I was in a minority here in saying it was a massive mistake and that he deserved a chance to rebuild with funds, especially after the summer departure was averted by Levy sweet-talking. I have been clear; a piece of me died off with that tragic decision.


Whatever anyone thinks of Ange, we are in a European final. I am going to enjoy that, albeit the stain will always be the incessant reminders of how brick some people feel he is (I wish there could be an agreement for truce until Thur 22nd).

I cannot claim moral superiority. Back in 99 I enjoyed winning a trophy but not with raincoat in charge. In my defence I was over 25 years younger than I am now, so that combination of youth, hubris, anger, and misdirected emotions were washing all over me (he also fudged over a friend who was playing for us at the time)...

...I am doing everything I can to enjoy this moment, which includes watching in a stress-free aggro-free environment (i.e. not Bilbao for me).
Life is shorter 25 years on. My neighbour's wife died suddenly at 42 on Feb 4th. Friends have cancer. Peers have died. My parents passed. Life presents great challenges, and I have to pick where my joy can be found.
Nick Cave last night.
Stereo MCs tonight.
Spending time with my fantastic wife.
Having lunches with my 32 year old son who is also die-hard Spurs.
Trying to help my neurodivergent 19 year old
daughter navigate what for her is often a daunting world.
Enjoying my creative work.
Underworld next Friday...and before that, the most incongruous and incredible of anomalies, a European final for Tottenham Hotspur.

Facts and stats are curious things. They sit and taunt us. Context bends them in directions which suit our perspectives. Dialectics exist everywhere...

...my friend.
Your passion and fire for this club is evident.
I hope you can find space in your mind (and heart) to park all the negatives aside and focus only on the incredible positive that Tottenham Hotspur are in a European final.
I hope you can enjoy it unfettered with reflective emotions, flooded only with the very present and raw feral instinct that wants to see US win as a CLUB.

Sending best wishes and hope you can do it for yourself...

 

[thfcsteff]

Don't get me wrong I'd rather it was Poch or nuno, but beggars can't be choosers and we've not had much to cheer about.
I'm lucky to be old enough to remember winning the EL in '84 and it's still the best sporting memory of my life.
This won't be the same, age, experience and lots disappointments have taken the shine from it, but I'm excited and hopeful.

With you.
I was a delirious shelf-side teenager that night.

 

[thfcsteff]

All sarcasm and bitterness aside I'm genuinely happy for you and all the other fans that feel that way. I hope we win it for you guys and wish I could feel the same way.

You can mate. It's a choice.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

You can mate. It's a choice.

I wish the way you feel WAS a choice. Otherwise I wouldn't be on prescription anti depressants!

 

[Finney Is Back]

Well to be honest the chat in this thread really does take the shine off it for me partly. I will not enjoy the success if it comes nearly as much as if say Poch had won something where we all felt like we were pulling in the same direction. This guy is just given a completely free pass by some and I'm unsure why. Earlier it was "when all the players come back we will climb the table". After the players came back and things actually got worse, it's "don't worry, he's thrown the league, it's all part of the master plan to win the Europa league "

My perception was that we secured safety with the wins over Brentford and Man Utd and then went all out for the Europa League as winning that and finishing 17th was deemed a better outcome than winning nothing and finishing (say) 9th to 12th.

Re: Poch. I completely agree with you. He deserved to win a trophy for Spurs, we were indeed all pulling in the same direction, well all of us other than the Chairman unfortunately. I'd love Poch to come back to Spurs but want it to happen under new owners and not these ones.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I think we look back on those teams well? Especially Ramos' given the opponents in semi's & final - the league form of the time doesn't overshadow the cup wins imv

Didn't Ramos get shafted by the board selling both Berbatov and Keane in the same summer transfer window?

 

[Finney Is Back]

We put 26 points on the board in the first 10 games of last season. We then proceeded to win only 12 of the remaining 28 fixtures, losing 12. So the form slid massively off the rails and it felt very much like we limped into 5th and there were clearly evident problems with the team set up that had begun to be regularly and ruthlessly exploited by opponents and that I like many had hoped would be rectified over the summer and in pre-season, but the problems continued; we had a poor start and it's just got worse from there. We've had almost 2 years of consistent decline under this coach....

League tables are decided over a whole 38 game season. Last season we amassed enough points to finish 5th - a very good finish for what Ange inherited. We also had areas of weakness in the squad and suffered injuries in key positions that hampered us for a portion of the season.

This season I thought we filled some of the squad gaps (though not all of them). We then started the season reasonably well in terms of our performances and our underlying numbers were decent. We probably deserved more points than we had. We then picked up a lot of injuries and had too many games for a squad that was too small and too inexperienced to play both league and cup football to later rounds.

If Ange wins the Europa he would've done something that other managers under these owners have been unable to do. Deliver a big trophy. The whole 25 year history under ENIC tells us this isn't an expected or easy thing to do. I think it would therefore be wrong if we sacked a manager who actually managed to win us one (though I do appreciate that winning trophies isn't really something that seems particularly important to the owners of this club).

 

[Finney Is Back]

The risk is you miss the chance to bring in the best option if you try to do it mid season. If we are going to sack him next season anyway (and that feels likely given his intransigence) then it would be better do it in the summer to allow whomever the new guy is a preseason to bed in their play style and potentially get additions that suit their play style. Leaving the decision until November might well waste yet another season.

The best manager we have brought in since Pochettino came in mid season. I've not got any confidence in this board to appoint a decent manager in the summer. We could've had Slot instead of Ange but wouldn't pay the release fee. We could've had Conte instead of Nuno that summer but wouldn't promise him the transfer funds (only for the promises to magically appear mid-season when the 'ENIC/Levy out' chants were getting louder and louder in the stadium and Nuno was sacked). If Ange goes in the summer then I suspect we'll spend £10m paying off Ange thus reducing our transfer budget and then take a manager who is cheap to obtain.

 

[Finney Is Back]

There are a range of views on Ange and his ability. I have posted elsewhere that I think he has approached the League games very differently to the Cup and Europa League games. It feels like he is binning off the league games

I think the teams he has picked since we've had the main players back from injury is a very big indication that the priority has been the Europa League

 

[Finney Is Back]

I don't think (hope) that anyone running a football club makes decisions in that manner.

I would imagine clubs that sack managers who have just delivered their second trophy of any kind in 27 years and first european trophy for 41 years are pretty few and far between. I think we're already seen as a bit of a basket case in football circles (sacking a manager like Pochettino after all he had done, also sacking Mourinho to put Ryan Mason in place in the week leading up to a cup final) so I suppose sacking a manager who had just delivered the clubs first European trophy for 41 years and Champions League football would just get a reaction of 'there they go again' in the football world

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

League tables are decided over a whole 38 game season. Last season we amassed enough points to finish 5th - a very good finish for what Ange inherited. We also had areas of weakness in the squad and suffered injuries in key positions that hampered us for a portion of the season.

This season I thought we filled some of the squad gaps (though not all of them). We then started the season reasonably well in terms of our performances and our underlying numbers were decent. We probably deserved more points than we had. We then picked up a lot of injuries and had too many games for a squad that was too small and too inexperienced to play both league and cup football to later rounds.

If Ange wins the Europa he would've done something that other managers under these owners have been unable to do. Deliver a big trophy. The whole 25 year history under ENIC tells us this isn't an expected or easy thing to do. I think it would therefore be wrong if we sacked a manager who actually managed to win us one (though I do appreciate that winning trophies isn't really something that seems particularly important to the owners of this club).

I've done this whole owners thing to death but while it is comforting for some to put the "difficulty in winning trophies" down to ENIC, the reality is that since Abramovich's arrival at Chelsea, trophy winning has dwindled and then become statistically unlikely for any club without doped finances (Chelsea/City) or huge global commercial revenues due to historic fan base (Utd/Liverpool). Look at the pattern:

League Winners:
Chelsea
Chelsea
Utd
Utd
Utd
Chelsea
Utd
City
Utd
City
Chelsea
Leicester
Chelsea
City
City
Liverpool
City
City
City
City
Liverpool

FA Cup:
Arsenal
Liverpool
Chelsea
Portsmouth
Chelsea
Chelsea
City
Chelsea
Wigan
Arsenal
Arsenal
Utd
Arsenal
Chelsea
City
Arsenal
Leicester
Liverpool
City
Utd

League Cup:
Middlesbrough
Chelsea
Utd
Chelsea
Spurs
Utd
Utd
Birmingham
Liverpool
Swansea
City
Chelsea
City
Utd
City
City
City
City
Liverpool
Utd
Liverpool
Saudi Sportswashing Machine

This whole "sacrifice the league" for a tin pot is bo**cks. I watch spurs for enjoyment and escapism from my mundane stressful life. Playing like *dogsh*t" all season for one moment of elation is like me saying i want to eat stale bread and water most of the year so I can have one night at a Michelin star restaurant. It's a mostly miserable existence.

Spurs this season have added to the general cloud over my life watching us all over the place week in week out. It's been embarrassing and unenjoyable stressed every weekend, not watching MOTD as I don't want to be reminded of the filth they've just served me up....its unacceptable and the quicker this clueless oath f***s off the better in my book.

 

[thfcsteff]

I wish the way you feel WAS a choice. Otherwise I wouldn't be on prescription anti depressants!

I will answer this privately mate. Look for a PM.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I would imagine clubs that sack managers who have just delivered their second trophy of any kind in 27 years and first european trophy for 41 years are pretty few and far between. I think we're already seen as a bit of a basket case in football circles (sacking a manager like Pochettino after all he had done, also sacking Mourinho to put Ryan Mason in place in the week leading up to a cup final) so I suppose sacking a manager who had just delivered the clubs first European trophy for 41 years and Champions League football would just get a reaction of 'there they go again' in the football world

They'd be a large dose of sentimentality in any decision to keep Ange on (if we win).

But it'll give you the chance to get the stick out, if he goes.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I would imagine clubs that sack managers who have just delivered their second trophy of any kind in 27 years and first european trophy for 41 years are pretty few and far between. I think we're already seen as a bit of a basket case in football circles (sacking a manager like Pochettino after all he had done, also sacking Mourinho to put Ryan Mason in place in the week leading up to a cup final) so I suppose sacking a manager who had just delivered the clubs first European trophy for 41 years and Champions League football would just get a reaction of 'there they go again' in the football world

Out of interest do you think Man Utd made a good decision last summer in keeping Ten Haag and buying more players for him? Bear in mind that ETH had a poor season last year league results wise and also in terms of how his team played generally - but he never was as bad as we have been for over a year under Ange...

Also, from purely a tactical/coaching pov: what do you see as Ane's strengths that he brings to our playing squad? Who do you see as players that have gotten better under his tutelage?

 

[harr1984]

I've done this whole owners thing to death but while it is comforting for some to put the "difficulty in winning trophies" down to ENIC, the reality is that since Abramovich's arrival at Chelsea, trophy winning has dwindled and then become statistically unlikely for any club without doped finances (Chelsea/City) or huge global commercial revenues due to historic fan base (Utd/Liverpool). Look at the pattern:

League Winners:
Chelsea
Chelsea
Utd
Utd
Utd
Chelsea
Utd
City
Utd
City
Chelsea
Leicester
Chelsea
City
City
Liverpool
City
City
City
City
Liverpool

FA Cup:
Arsenal
Liverpool
Chelsea
Portsmouth
Chelsea
Chelsea
City
Chelsea
Wigan
Arsenal
Arsenal
Utd
Arsenal
Chelsea
City
Arsenal
Leicester
Liverpool
City
Utd

League Cup:
Middlesbrough
Chelsea
Utd
Chelsea
Spurs
Utd
Utd
Birmingham
Liverpool
Swansea
City
Chelsea
City
Utd
City
City
City
City
Liverpool
Utd
Liverpool
Saudi Sportswashing Machine

This whole "sacrifice the league" for a tin pot is bo**cks. I watch spurs for enjoyment and escapism from my mundane stressful life. Playing like *dogsh*t" all season for one moment of elation is like me saying i want to eat stale bread and water most of the year so I can have one night at a Michelin star restaurant. It's a mostly miserable existence.

Spurs this season have added to the general cloud over my life watching us all over the place week in week out. It's been embarrassing and unenjoyable stressed every weekend, not watching MOTD as I don't want to be reminded of the filth they've just served me up....its unacceptable and the quicker this clueless oath f***s off the better in my book.

So you've just made a case for how difficult winning trophies are and then complain about us sacrificing the league (where once the injury situation occurred we was never getting anywhere near the top places anyway) to try and win arguably the third biggest trophy (behind the CL and PL) that we could possibly win! Sorry but for me the finishing in the top 4 party is a great accomplishment and can look back with great enjoyment at some of the games of said season - but as far as I'm concerned we are in it to win it, and Levy has done well to build us up to be a club who can compete for trophies and it's about time we delivered. All of the big clubs have had poor seasons in the league and still won a trophy. Look, it's clearly an 'each to their own' scenario here there is no right or wrong answer but my opinion:

Doing anything in the league was a write off once we had those mass injuries, many said it at the time (November/December) our best chance of Europe was winning the EL
Finishing 17th in the league isn't good enough, but we would have finished higher if we had not focused on winning the EL. But that finish would have been somewhere around11th/12th. I would rather winning the EL and qualifying for the CL over finishing midtable and winning nothing and no CL or Europe at all
It is not acceptable to continuously finish in this sort of position in the league. But with the hand we have been dealt, I am more than ok with the end result being a major European trophy being lifted and European football.

All hypotheticals right now, lets hope it plays out on Wednesday. Oh and I really hope you end up enjoying the game and it gives you some form of cheer to compensate the lack of it throughout the season.....

 

[thfcsteff]

I've done this whole owners thing to death but while it is comforting for some to put the "difficulty in winning trophies" down to ENIC, the reality is that since Abramovich's arrival at Chelsea, trophy winning has dwindled and then become statistically unlikely for any club without doped finances (Chelsea/City) or huge global commercial revenues due to historic fan base (Utd/Liverpool). Look at the pattern:

League Winners:
Chelsea
Chelsea
Utd
Utd
Utd
Chelsea
Utd
City
Utd
City
Chelsea
Leicester
Chelsea
City
City
Liverpool
City
City
City
City
Liverpool

FA Cup:
Arsenal
Liverpool
Chelsea
Portsmouth
Chelsea
Chelsea
City
Chelsea
Wigan
Arsenal
Arsenal
Utd
Arsenal
Chelsea
City
Arsenal
Leicester
Liverpool
City
Utd

League Cup:
Middlesbrough
Chelsea
Utd
Chelsea
Spurs
Utd
Utd
Birmingham
Liverpool
Swansea
City
Chelsea
City
Utd
City
City
City
City
Liverpool
Utd
Liverpool
Saudi Sportswashing Machine

This whole "sacrifice the league" for a tin pot is bo**cks. I watch spurs for enjoyment and escapism from my mundane stressful life. Playing like *dogsh*t" all season for one moment of elation is like me saying i want to eat stale bread and water most of the year so I can have one night at a Michelin star restaurant. It's a mostly miserable existence.

Spurs this season have added to the general cloud over my life watching us all over the place week in week out. It's been embarrassing and unenjoyable stressed every weekend, not watching MOTD as I don't want to be reminded of the filth they've just served me up....its unacceptable and the quicker this clueless oath f***s off the better in my book.

OK. As that may be in your case, here you are. A final ahead of you. Potentially a night at that Michelin Star restaurant. You not enjoying a moment won't change the rest of what has happened; it has happened!!!!
This is now.
Why not let go of the past if only for 24 hours?

 

[carl]

I would imagine clubs that sack managers who have just delivered their second trophy of any kind in 27 years and first european trophy for 41 years are pretty few and far between. I think we're already seen as a bit of a basket case in football circles (sacking a manager like Pochettino after all he had done, also sacking Mourinho to put Ryan Mason in place in the week leading up to a cup final) so I suppose sacking a manager who had just delivered the clubs first European trophy for 41 years and Champions League football would just get a reaction of 'there they go again' in the football world

I liken Postecoglu to a bad comedian. brick jokes all night but the final joke is an absolute belter. Does that make him a good comedian? No. Would you go and watch him again? No. Sure the last joke was good but on the whole pretty awful

 

[Finney Is Back]

I've done this whole owners thing to death but while it is comforting for some to put the "difficulty in winning trophies" down to ENIC, the reality is that since Abramovich's arrival at Chelsea, trophy winning has dwindled and then become statistically unlikely for any club without doped finances (Chelsea/City) or huge global commercial revenues due to historic fan base (Utd/Liverpool). Look at the pattern:

League Winners:
Chelsea
Chelsea
Utd
Utd
Utd
Chelsea
Utd
City
Utd
City
Chelsea
Leicester
Chelsea
City
City
Liverpool
City
City
City
City
Liverpool

FA Cup:
Arsenal
Liverpool
Chelsea
Portsmouth
Chelsea
Chelsea
City
Chelsea
Wigan
Arsenal
Arsenal
Utd
Arsenal
Chelsea
City
Arsenal
Leicester
Liverpool
City
Utd

League Cup:
Middlesbrough
Chelsea
Utd
Chelsea
Spurs
Utd
Utd
Birmingham
Liverpool
Swansea
City
Chelsea
City
Utd
City
City
City
City
Liverpool
Utd
Liverpool
Saudi Sportswashing Machine

This whole "sacrifice the league" for a tin pot is bo**cks. I watch spurs for enjoyment and escapism from my mundane stressful life. Playing like *dogsh*t" all season for one moment of elation is like me saying i want to eat stale bread and water most of the year so I can have one night at a Michelin star restaurant. It's a mostly miserable existence.

Spurs this season have added to the general cloud over my life watching us all over the place week in week out. It's been embarrassing and unenjoyable stressed every weekend, not watching MOTD as I don't want to be reminded of the filth they've just served me up....its unacceptable and the quicker this clueless oath f***s off the better in my book.

Yes, so if we finally have a manager that manages to win us a trophy, it would seem folly to sack them no?

You think winning a tin pot is gonads, that is your prerogative. Personally I have loved seeing Spurs win every trophy we have won in my lifetime and I would happily sacrifice a finishing higher in the league to win a trophy every single season.

Question for you.... If us winning the Europa league makes it more likely that Ange keeps his job then would you rather we lost the final?

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Yes, so if we finally have a manager that manages to win us a trophy, it would seem folly to sack them no?

You think winning a tin pot is gonads, that is your prerogative. Personally I have loved seeing Spurs win every trophy we have won in my lifetime and I would happily sacrifice a finishing higher in the league to win a trophy every single season.

Question for you.... If us winning the Europa league makes it more likely that Ange keeps his job then would you rather we lost the final?

If you think it would be folly to sack Postecoglu then I think we are done 2bh....