Ange in or out?

[Gutter Boy]

Everyone one of them bar Conte had a chance to win the Europa League or the Conference League. Guess what? None of them did. Most of the time we were knocked out by teams that people believe(d) we should have beaten: https://www.glory-glory.co.uk/threads/brennan-johnson.11750/page-65#post-1913415

All of them prioritised the league of it and the cups. And we finished 4th a few times, had a couple of incredible Champions League runs and...where are we now? The perennial "yeah but you don't win anything" team.

So we've taken the other approach this year. If we win next Wednesday, that'll mean far more to me than any other match in my Spurs-watching life.

Nothing will ever top Amsterdam or the Gazza semi for me. They were fairytales.

There's no story or connection here. I will be happy, but it will be same tier as the George Graham league cup in terms of memories.

 

[Muttley]

As I said above, I feel calm about Ange's future at this late stage of the season. I figured out quite some time ago that we had the emperor with no clothes problem happening at our club. I listened to every silly narrative he came out with. I watched him talk like he was some type of philosopher or life coach, and preach to anyone that would listen. I watched him cleverly evade the toughest questions by getting aggressive with the journo's where there was absolutely no need. I grew to dislike the man in a similar way I do with Jose and Conte, whilst never feeling that way about classy guys like Poch or Nuno.

Most of all though, I watched what was happening on the pitch. You tolerate the above if the end product is good. It has been anything but. No point going into the reasons why again.

So I'm just going to disassociate with the manager's position for another 10 days. I'll pick it back up after the last kick of the Brighton game. Knowing Spurs, the day before the EL final there will be a press leak on who the new manager is and the bookies odds will shorten on that guy. You can see by the odds that they haven't got a clue at the moment.

 

[harr1984]

I've got tickets and still haven't sorted out travel.
I love my club I just don't enjoy watching them.

Fair play to you. You've made it clear you don't like the team under this manager but you're still making the effort.

I don't think Ange has been dealt an easy hand at all this season. I do think he is a competent manager who has actually been learning on the job as this is his first time managing at this level and has had to find out the hard way his methods need adapting to succeed in this league. He hasn't helped himself at times, both on and off the pitch and likely that will end up being his downfall regardless of the result Wednesday.

I think some have gone way OTT on their criticism of Ange but fair enough, difference of opinions and all that. Just hope everyone can enjoy Wednesday night if we get the result and not instantly revert back to whinging about the manager....

 

[thfcsteff]

I feel this way too. I'm not excited about the final. A trophy, is just a pot at the end of the day, that's awarded to the club and goes in their cabinet. Moments make football, togetherness makes being a football supporter worthwhile. This guy has as you say killed it for me. I just cannot get behind this guy, who holds us in complete contempt might I add - per several evidences of his behaviour towards us this season - winning this trophy. Will feel like an Ange victory, not a spurs victory, it will be a 2 finger salute from Ange to us and the club, hopefully before he f*cks off elsewhere....i will also be watching the final on my own in the house kind of actually indifferent to the result and if the wife or one of the kids wants me to do something for them, I'll gladly oblige. I feel zero emotional attachment to this game.

Just be honest; you'll give as big a f uck as any supporter would when 8pm rolls around on Wednesday night. If you didn't care you wouldn't be here saying you don't care LOL!
BTW I find your take on a potential victory totally and utterly bonkers.

 

[DaveT316]

I have to say, there has been some pretty weird discourse in here over the past 10 pages or so. It is a discussion board, and it is a weird time to support Spurs, so I guess that is to be expected.

What has surprised me is the amount of posters who seem, to me at least, to be pushing the point that they believe that there are a significant number of Spurs supporters who actively want us to lose next week. From what I’ve read, albeit only on here, there may be one or two, at best, holding this view, but it seems to have descended into a culture war-type debate.

What I DO see is a sub-section of people that DO want us to win, but are either a) feeling they’ll take little joy in any success, given the season we’ve had or b) are potentially scared of us winning leading to Ange staying.

I can totally understand those views - everyone’s feelings are their own - and some people have conflated the people being ‘Ange Out’ with them feeling the ‘Outers’ want us to lose. I just don’t see much evidence of that on here and the vast, vast majority of us on the board are hoping for us to win. I see a dialectic here…

Anyway, as I say, it’s a place for discussion. It just feels probably indicative of how the fan base has ruptured over the past few years. Sad times.

I just felt the need to jump in and try and characterise more accurately what I feel I’ve seen expressed over the last few pages as some people seem to have been wilfully misrepresenting others.

 

[tommysvr]

I have to say, there has been some pretty weird discourse in here over the past 10 pages or so. It is a discussion board, and it is a weird time that support Spurs, so I guess that is to be expected.

What has surprised me is the amount of posters who seem, to me at least, to be pushing the point that they believe that there are a significant number of Spurs supporters who actively want us to lose next week. From what I’ve read, albeit only on here, there may be one or two, at best, holding this view, but it seems to have descended into a culture war-type debate.

What I DO see is a sub-section of people that DO want us to win, but are either a) feeling they’ll take little joy in any success, given the season we’ve had or b) are potentially scared of us winning leading to Ange staying.

I can totally understand those views - everyone’s feelings are their own - and some people have conflated the people being ‘Ange Out’ with them feeling the ‘Outers’ want us to lose. I just don’t see much evidence of that on here and the vast, vast majority of us on the board are hoping for us to win. I see a dialectic here…

Anyway, as I say, it’s a place for discussion. It just feels probably indicative of how the fan base has ruptured over the past few years. Sad times.

I just felt the need to jump in and try and characterise more accurately what I feel I’ve seen expressed over the last few pages as some people seem to have been wilfully misrepresenting others.

I don't think anyone actively wants us to lose -- there may be one or two, as you say. But I think many are actively playing the potential achievement down to make them more comfortable with the prospect of an Ange-led Spurs team winning it. If not, why are there so many discussions about the level of team we've played?

If you don't Ange to stick around, fine, I can understand that view. But winning the Europa League, a European cup, and breaking out trophy drought will be massive. In 25 years the photo of Sonny lifting that trophy will be everywhere. No one will give a brick about beating AZ, Frankfurt, Bodø/Glimt and Man Utd to do it.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Just be honest; you'll give as big a f uck as any supporter would when 8pm rolls around on Wednesday night. If you didn't care you wouldn't be here saying you don't care LOL!
BTW I find your take on a potential victory totally and utterly bonkers.

I'm trying to be honest with my views on here. I fully appreciate the keyboard warrior mentality of exaggeration to illicit reaction. You'll never know how I really feel. And it isn't just down to *Ange*. I've felt a deepening disconnect with the club since Poch left. There was a brief reprieve in Conte's first season where I felt positive about the direction we were taking again and a bit of a feeling of shared goals and togetherness. It was gone with a flicker. As to Ange, it's not just him, but its me. Just can't get behind him 1) never felt he should have been appointed in the first place 2) ill just leave you with this:

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Continued...

 

[DaveT316]

I don't think anyone actively wants us to lose -- there may be one or two, as you say. But I think many are actively playing the potential achievement down to make them more comfortable with the prospect of an Ange-led Spurs team winning it. If not, why are there so many discussions about the level of team we've played?

If you don't Ange to stick around, fine, I can understand that view. But winning the Europa League, a European cup, and breaking out trophy drought will be massive. In 25 years the photo of Sonny lifting that trophy will be everywhere. No one will give a brick about beating AZ, Frankfurt, Bodø/Glimt and Man Utd to do it.

I think that’s a fair summary Tommy.

I actually think it’s an interesting discussion to have i.e. what level of achievement would this be when compared to some of our other recent ‘highs’ - CL final, 16/17 etc.

Ending the drought would be ‘massive’, but would it be a ‘massive achievement’? I think both things can and have been debated here and I don’t think you HAVE to have one if you have the other. You could obviously argue to the contrary.

Anyway, as I said, it’s just sad, to me, we’re not all on the same page going into a huge game. BUT, I don’t believe that’s anyone here’s fault.

 

[monkeybarry]

If Ange wins our first trophy in 17 years, our first European trophy in 41 years, he will have done an incredible job! He’ll forever be on the (sadly too short) list of managers who won a major trophy for the club — the league form has literally nothing to do with it.

If you’d rather finish 4th or 5th then that’s fine…I’ve watched us do that and those seasons will mean far less to me than this season, should we manage to win it.

No, he'll have done really well on one strand of him job. Indeed, already has.
But he's failed miserably at all the other strands. And it's a stackable performance level.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think that’s a fair summary Tommy.

I actually think it’s an interesting discussion to have i.e. what level of achievement would this be when compared to some of our other recent ‘highs’ - CL final, 16/17 etc.

Ending the drought would be ‘massive’, but would it be a ‘massive achievement’? I think both things can and have been debated here and I don’t think you HAVE to have one if you have the other. You could obviously argue to the contrary.

Anyway, as I said, it’s just sad, to me, we’re not all on the same page going into a huge game. BUT, I don’t believe that’s anyone here’s fault.

winning any trophy is huge for a club where we have been starved of any success
A European one that is a trophy with history is significant
Who cares who we play to win it. No one goes through record books and looks at that.
And the bonus of CL is significant
what would be an interesting question would be..
1. Win the cup but no CL
2. Lose the cup but get CL
What would people choose
I’d take the cup even though CL may have a bigger benefit short term
I think others may not agree

 

[tommysvr]

I think that’s a fair summary Tommy.

I actually think it’s an interesting discussion to have i.e. what level of achievement would this be when compared to some of our other recent ‘highs’ - CL final, 16/17 etc.

Ending the drought would be ‘massive’, but would it be a ‘massive achievement’? I think both things can and have been debated here and I don’t think you HAVE to have one if you have the other. You could obviously argue to the contrary.

Anyway, as I said, it’s just sad, to me, we’re not all on the same page going into a huge game. BUT, I don’t believe that’s anyone here’s fault.

In my opinion, the answer to that lies in our history. If we’d won this — or any other trophy — more regularly, no. But it’s 41 years since a European trophy. Only 5 English teams have ever won it. Arsenal, for all their success over the years, have never won it.

I also think to allow the league form or a personal dislike of Ange to take any gloss of what winning the Europa League should mean is a huge missed opportunity as a fan. Who knows when we’ll be back here?

 

[Robspur12]

I appreciate I'm probably in a fairly small minority (possibly alone on here), but he has managed to kill my interest to the point where I genuinely don't care one way or another about the final (and I've tried). As little as a year ago, I wouldn't have believed you if you'd told me that.

Even if we do manage to squeak past Man Utd somehow — which I would doubt, even were I as positive a person as some of you, and for reasons I hardly need elaborate on (Rapazes, é o Tottenham) — it will be completely hollow for me. It's now a devalued competition for a start, largely filled with mediocrity, the final of which will be contested by two teams 16th and 17th in their domestic league, so attempts to draw comparison with past glories leave me rather cold.

I will watch the game as dispassionately as I did the one on Sunday (the first time I've ever left a game early in the 52 years since my first attendance, sitting on my uncle's shoulders in the Park Lane), and just as I have done the vast majority of our games this season. At the final whistle, I'll feel nothing, regardless of the outcome. Literally the only thing I want to hear is that he is finally gone.

My first Spurs Trophy win was in 1981. I was 8 years old and I still remember Ricky Villa dancing around the Emirates Marketing Project defence before putting the ball in the net. Then I remember my Spurs hero, Glenn Hoddle, scoring a penalty against a Terry Venables led QPR in the final in 82. I remember sneaking downstairs in 84 to watch the UEFA final as an 11 year old because my dad was being an arse and had stopped me from watching it just because he could. I remember that brilliant team in 87 who really should have won something. The Joy of 91 in what was otherwise a rubbish year for me personally. I loved the win in 99 and actually thought GG was building something. I have the DVD of the win in 2008 which I’ve watched over and over again, (I have the 81 cup win too). I remember loving the Champions League run in 2019, even though we didn’t win in the end, the feeling at the end of that Semi was almost as good as a win. I will always love how Poch made me feel about Spurs even though we don’t win a trophy in the end.

And yet this year feels different. I am sure very few people agree with me but I am posting to vent, I am really sorry it sounds negative. Maybe I have some undiagnosed neurodiversity. I just cannot love this year’s final or feel completely engaged, it does not feel right. And when it doesn’t feel right that bothers me, more so as I get older.

When did it become ok for our team to not turn up to matches? Sunday last, Palace came to our back yard and played us off it. They have a cup final this weekend, and have never even won a trophy, so no one can tell me it means less to them than us. They have nothing to play for in the league, but they still turned up and Glasner respected his fans who pay to watch their club. Our man only cares about his brand. When did it become ok to have a go at fans for them not wanting their hated rival to win the league? When did it become ok to cup your hand to your ears at away supporters who are having to watch an ill prepared, poorly coached team? when is it ok to boast about always winning in your second season rather than show a bit of humility when you are new to a league? when is it ok to talk about narrative and negativity around Spurs even though you have made us a laughing stock this season by losing so many games? At least Amorim seems on the outside to show some humility for his situation at Man United. All I hear from Ange is excuses

You know what though? when the whistle goes and we ko, I’m sure the jaded old supporter in me will still cheer any goal and the win of a trophy. I have to because of my son. But make no mistake I get where you are coming from I want this guy gone.

 

[glasgowspur]

I think that’s a fair summary Tommy.

I actually think it’s an interesting discussion to have i.e. what level of achievement would this be when compared to some of our other recent ‘highs’ - CL final, 16/17 etc.

Ending the drought would be ‘massive’, but would it be a ‘massive achievement’? I think both things can and have been debated here and I don’t think you HAVE to have one if you have the other. You could obviously argue to the contrary.

Anyway, as I said, it’s just sad, to me, we’re not all on the same page going into a huge game. BUT, I don’t believe that’s anyone here’s fault.

So what would be a massive achievement?
Winning the PL or the CL?
Two tournaments that other than the fairytale of Leicester have been dominated by either the three biggest clubs in the world (Madrid, man utd, Liverpool) or two hugely financially rigged clubs in Emirates Marketing Project and Chelsea.

I stand to be corrected but outside Madrid, city, Liverpool and Chelsea only Leicester and bayern have won either of those trophies in the last decade.

Who seriously expects us to win those two trophies?
If that is our level of expectations for success then it's no wonder we are constantly disappointed.

Not saying those are your expectations BTW, but this devaluation of anything we achieve is a millstone around our neck.
We need to start somewhere, EL is the biggest trophy we can realistically win, it's as good a place as any to start.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

So what would be a massive achievement?
Winning the PL or the CL?
Two tournaments that other than the fairytale of Leicester have been dominated by either the three biggest clubs in the world (Madrid, man utd, Liverpool) or two hugely financially rigged clubs in Emirates Marketing Project and Chelsea.

I stand to be corrected but outside Madrid, city, Liverpool and Chelsea only Leicester and bayern have won either of those trophies in the last decade.

Who seriously expects us to win those two trophies?
If that is our level of expectations for success then it's no wonder we are constantly disappointed.

Not saying those are your expectations BTW, but this devaluation of anything we achieve is a millstone around our neck.
We need to start somewhere, EL is the biggest trophy we can realistically win, it's as good a place as any to start.

If AVB or Poch had won Europa I'd have been absolutely buzzing.

 

[Mcfee]

Have to say I don’t understand the ambivalence at all. Players and Managers come and go but the Club is constant. I know I’ll be a wreck on Wednesday night and that’s if we win! Though I’m afraid we’re set for a big fall after all this debate.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

My first Spurs Trophy win was in 1981. I was 8 years old and I still remember Ricky Villa dancing around the Emirates Marketing Project defence before putting the ball in the net. Then I remember my Spurs hero, Glenn Hoddle, scoring a penalty against a Terry Venables led QPR in the final in 82. I remember sneaking downstairs in 84 to watch the UEFA final as an 11 year old because my dad was being an arse and had stopped me from watching it just because he could. I remember that brilliant team in 87 who really should have won something. The Joy of 91 in what was otherwise a rubbish year for me personally. I loved the win in 99 and actually thought GG was building something. I have the DVD of the win in 2008 which I’ve watched over and over again, (I have the 81 cup win too). I remember loving the Champions League run in 2019, even though we didn’t win in the end, the feeling at the end of that Semi was almost as good as a win. I will always love how Poch made me feel about Spurs even though we don’t win a trophy in the end.

And yet this year feels different. I am sure very few people agree with me but I am posting to vent, I am really sorry it sounds negative. Maybe I have some undiagnosed neurodiversity. I just cannot love this year’s final or feel completely engaged, it does not feel right. And when it doesn’t feel right that bothers me, more so as I get older.

When did it become ok for our team to not turn up to matches? Sunday last, Palace came to our back yard and played us off it. They have a cup final this weekend, and have never even won a trophy, so no one can tell me it means less to them than us. They have nothing to play for in the league, but they still turned up and Glasner respected his fans who pay to watch their club. Our man only cares about his brand. When did it become ok to have a go at fans for them not wanting their hated rival to win the league? When did it become ok to cup your hand to your ears at away supporters who are having to watch an ill prepared, poorly coached team? when is it ok to boast about always winning in your second season rather than show a bit of humility when you are new to a league? when is it ok to talk about narrative and negativity around Spurs even though you have made us a laughing stock this season by losing so many games? At least Amorim seems on the outside to show some humility for his situation at Man United. All I hear from Ange is excuses

You know what though? when the whistle goes and we ko, I’m sure the jaded old supporter in me will still cheer any goal and the win of a trophy. I have to because of my son. But make no mistake I get where you are coming from I want this guy gone.

Absolutely bang on with Palace comparison. This whole "Ange now has a free pass as he's thrown the league"....its just an acceptance of unacceptable and unprofessional standards that make an absolute mockery of basically everything we want this club to be.

"It is better to fail aiming high than to succeed aiming low. And we at Spurs have set our sights very high, so that even failure will have in it an echo of glory"

 

[glasgowspur]

If AVB or Poch had won Europa I'd have been absolutely buzzing.

It's not avb or Poch winning, it's Tottenham Hotspur Football Club.
The name engraved on the trophy is ours.
The name in the history books is ours.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

It's not avb or Poch winning, it's Tottenham Hotspur Football Club.
The name engraved on the trophy is ours.
The name in the history books is ours.

"There used to be a football club over there" is how i feel.

I'm happy for you that you can get the same buzz over ear cupping, fan baiting, sniggering Ange leading NFL franchise FC to Europa league glory after limping through 2 seasons of increasingly deteriorating performances and increasingly arrogant behaviour and references.......

 

[glasgowspur]

"There used to be a football club over there" is how i feel.

I'm happy for you that you can get the same buzz over ear cupping, fan baiting, sniggering Ange leading NFL franchise FC to Europa league glory after limping through 2 seasons of increasingly deteriorating performances and increasingly arrogant behaviour and references.......

Don't get me wrong I'd rather it was Poch or nuno, but beggars can't be choosers and we've not had much to cheer about.
I'm lucky to be old enough to remember winning the EL in '84 and it's still the best sporting memory of my life.
This won't be the same, age, experience and lots disappointments have taken the shine from it, but I'm excited and hopeful.