OMT - The Sh1tmunchers Derby

[SubZero]

We never looked clueless under Poch. And there was always a feeling (up until the last few months of his time with us) that the momentum was forward.

In short, then, the polar opposite of now.

Agree, at the end we looked disjointed, like something weren't right below the surface, and we could seem fatigued and complacent (where he regularly didn't sub), but I cannot remember us looking clueless.

That said, maybe too much hinged on Eriksen being in form. If Maddison hadn't gotten injured right after our initial spell under Ange, things could perhaps have panned out differently. Moore being a potential exception, we are so devoid of creativity that it hurts. We are very good on the break, but that's about it.

 

[Robspur12]

For real. Some people were expecting Ange to select the full team so they could lay into him about his lack of strategic thinking especially if there were injuries.

I think most people would not think it unreasonable to win against 4th worst team in the league. That wasn't a scratch team we had out there. It was a rotated 1st team not one full of youngsters and debutants. That's how poor we are this season.

 

[Robspur12]

Yeh, thats where I am, you see other sides with varying success slot players into places where they seemingly know their role. Just does not seem to be the case here. I would argue many in the first team don't know their role

I remember Bournemouth earlier in the season ravaged by injuries smashing Saudi Sportswashing Machine 4-1 at their ground.

 

[Robspur12]

That is consistent across the past 3 to 4 managers.

Ok but we didn't have the squad options we have now! It should be better than this.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Ok but we didn't have the squad options we have now! It should be better than this.

"It should be better than this". In other news, the new pope is going to be a catholic bear that sh*ts in the woods

 

[Welshspur60]

Apart from the goal . I can only remember us troubling their keeper once and that was a weak sidefoot from Tel.
I know its not our strongest team, but lots of those players have played regularly.
We are so far off being a decent side.
Only plus's for me was Tel had a crack, and the only other standout was Danso.

 

[Craig_J]

We never looked clueless under Poch. And there was always a feeling (up until the last few months of his time with us) that the momentum was forward.

In short, then, the polar opposite of now.

It’s very sad because just as you say with the new stadium, a couple of top 3 challenges, reaching first ever CL final new stadium and Alli and Kane coming through it seem we were making huge strides. Even setting attendance records at Wembley

For quite a while we were an established champions league side

Such a shame just how fast that team actually unravelled. Sadly we had to much to replace at once

Now it kinda feels like starting completely from scratch. Especially with Kane gone and Sonny now starting to show his age

 

[Mr Gogolak]

That is consistent across the past 3 to 4 managers.

I disagree with that. There was a system under Conte. The problem with Conte wasn't the system itself, it was having the players with the skill AND experience to make it work. And the fact that the football was incredibly dull, of course. Of course, you could argue that it's the same with Postecoglou (who lost arguably the best striker in the world); the difference being that Conte had us fighting for a CL place when we're at the bottom of the pile now.

As for Mourinho, I think that's a tad unfair: he tried to adapt to the players he had at his disposal (he built an unbalanced 4-2-3-1 that gave Aurier a lot of space and freedom down the right, something quite different from his normal set-up). As for Espirito Santo, he really can't be judged one way or another.

You can't eat your cake and have it. If you get a 'system' manager (Conte or Postecoglou), then creativity becomes a low priority - the system is suppose to create chances, not the players. If the work had been done correctly, you should at least be able to see a shape, an intention, something... that was a horrible little game but it doesn't really matter at this point. Only thing that did was avoiding injuries and, for once, we didn't lose.

 

[tommysvr]

The impact of mass changes is pretty clear; in the past, it's been limited to Europe though. We've prioritised the Premier League over the Europa & Conferences leagues. Here are the 5 losses we had in those competitions under Nuno and Jose, and the number of changes made from the match before:

0-1 Royal Antwerp - 29 Oct 2020: https://thfcdb.com/matches/2020-21/royal-antwerp-fc-29-oct-2020/lineup


0-3 Dynamo Zagreb - 18 Mar 2021: https://thfcdb.com/matches/2020-21/dinamo-zagreb-18-mar-2021/lineup


0-1 Paços de Ferreira - 19 Aug 2021: https://thfcdb.com/matches/2021-22/paços-de-ferreira-19-aug-2021/lineup


0-1 v Vitesse - 21 Oct 2021: https://thfcdb.com/matches/2021-22/vitesse-21-oct-2021/lineup


1-2 v NŠ Mura - 25 Nov 2021: https://thfcdb.com/matches/2021-22/nš-mura-25-nov-2021/lineup



There are no doubt examples of where we did rotate and still got a result, but I think there's enough evidence of it clearly not working over the years -- many more like this going back into Poch, AVB and Redknapp in the Europa League too.

All data from my website.

 

[RigorMortis]

The impact of mass changes is pretty clear; in the past, it's been limited to Europe though. We've prioritised the Premier League over the Europa & Conferences leagues. Here are the 5 losses we had in those competitions under Nuno and Jose, and the number of changes made from the match before:

0-1 Royal Antwerp - 29 Oct 2020: https://thfcdb.com/matches/2020-21/royal-antwerp-fc-29-oct-2020/lineup
View attachment 19436

0-3 Dynamo Zagreb - 18 Mar 2021: https://thfcdb.com/matches/2020-21/dinamo-zagreb-18-mar-2021/lineup
View attachment 19437

0-1 Paços de Ferreira - 19 Aug 2021: https://thfcdb.com/matches/2021-22/paços-de-ferreira-19-aug-2021/lineup
View attachment 19438

0-1 v Vitesse - 21 Oct 2021: https://thfcdb.com/matches/2021-22/vitesse-21-oct-2021/lineup
View attachment 19439

1-2 v NŠ Mura - 25 Nov 2021: https://thfcdb.com/matches/2021-22/nš-mura-25-nov-2021/lineup
View attachment 19440


There are no doubt examples of where we did rotate and still got a result, but I think there's enough evidence of it clearly not working over the years -- many more like this going back into Poch, AVB and Redknapp in the Europa League too.

All data from my website.

with the exception of the zagreb game which was undoubtedly a disaster, these seem to be all early stage european league games where you an afford to experiment with minimal disruption

This is the premier league and also with the caveat that for 18 months, regardless of the personnel, we have been pretty awful

 

[tommysvr]

with the exception of the zagreb game which was undoubtedly a disaster, these seem to be all early stage european league games where you an afford to experiment with minimal disruption

This is the premier league and also with the caveat that for 18 months, regardless of the personnel, we have been pretty awful

The point is mass rotation usually results in disjointed performances.

 

[RigorMortis]

I disagree with that. There was a system under Conte. The problem with Conte wasn't the system itself, it was having the players with the skill AND experience to make it work. And the fact that the football was incredibly dull, of course. Of course, you could argue that it's the same with Postecoglou (who lost arguably the best striker in the world); the difference being that Conte had us fighting for a CL place when we're at the bottom of the pile now.

As for Mourinho, I think that's a tad unfair: he tried to adapt to the players he had at his disposal (he built an unbalanced 4-2-3-1 that gave Aurier a lot of space and freedom down the right, something quite different from his normal set-up). As for Espirito Santo, he really can't be judged one way or another.

You can't eat your cake and have it. If you get a 'system' manager (Conte or Postecoglou), then creativity becomes a low priority - the system is suppose to create chances, not the players. If the work had been done correctly, you should at least be able to see a shape, an intention, something... that was a horrible little game but it doesn't really matter at this point. Only thing that did was avoiding injuries and, for once, we didn't lose.

i think there has been a bit of a retrospective reassessment of the conte tenure based on how it ended, the second half of conte’s first season was the best we have played since peak poch.

 

[RigorMortis]

The point is mass rotation usually results in disjointed performances.

In the case of our current incumbent, the point would be also that most of the players who have come in are first team regular albeit not currently first team choices and that there is a body of evidence in the league that regardless of the personnel, the system is flawed, rotation or no rotation

 

[Lilbaz]

i think there has been a bit of a retrospective reassessment of the conte tenure based on how it ended, the second half of conte’s first season was the best we have played since peak poch.

Enjoyed watching that. Although i'd say the first few games under ange we played really well.

 

[harr1984]

I remember Bournemouth earlier in the season ravaged by injuries smashing Saudi Sportswashing Machine 4-1 at their ground.

To be fair Rob, that was a one off. The longer they went with their injuries the worse their form got. We have had decent one off results with a load of our players missing.

The real point is, literally any team who makes 6/7 plus changes to their first team never looks like a cohesive unit at all whether it be at Spurs or any other club. It is a really weird thing to try and go at Ange for. I'm all for criticising Ange for his tactics in certain games but when resting almost the whole team that will be playing on Thursday plus for quite obvious reasons those on the pitch not going full pelt, this way always going to be the type of performance and I am just glad we didn't lose, which I expected to with it being their biggest game of the season....

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

No problem with the players he selected today.

I do, though, have a problem with the fact that - after almost two years - he has failed to implement a discernible system which allows squad players to slot in so that we look and play like something resembling a team.

I agree. And the excuse that these are reserve players is slightly undone by the fact that these reserve players are the ones that have actually had MORE game time. Besides they're all there everyday listening, learning, practising, training...it must add up to something?

Maybe they ARE playing the system. The problem is the system isn't very good (or at least doesn't look very good?)

 

[Mr Gogolak]

i think there has been a bit of a retrospective reassessment of the conte tenure based on how it ended, the second half of conte’s first season was the best we have played since peak poch.

From what I recall, the first six months, when we chased and finally snatched a CL qualification were quite exciting. Shambolic at times, perhaps, but still interesting. In my memory, the last three or four months however were extremely dull and frustrating: lots of draws against inferior/mediocre teams and a drop in form after the World Cup, leading to the Southampton meltdown.

It doesn't mean it happened like that. There's always some measure of retrospective reassessment in these situations, I believe.

 

[Baleforce]

It wasn’t all great under Conte, but he did get us in the CL through the league.

And it was never as bad as what we’ve seen for the last year.

I’ve been watching regularly for over 30 years, I’ve never seen us so consistently as bad as we have been over the last year.

I’d take Conte over Ange all day every day, or Jose, or Nuno.

 

[RigorMortis]

From what I recall, the first six months, when we chased and finally snatched a CL qualification were quite exciting. Shambolic at times, perhaps, but still interesting. In my memory, the last three or four months however were extremely dull and frustrating: lots of draws against inferior/mediocre teams and a drop in form after the World Cup, leading to the Southampton meltdown.

It doesn't mean it happened like that. There's always some measure of retrospective reassessment in these situations, I believe.

yes would agree to that, i think in the second half of the season we seemed to pick up after the chelsea carling cup debacle.

Conte’s second season was meh, seemed to recall we always seemed to be coming back from 2 goals down or at least going behind.

Having said that, if we had won that southampton game where he went into meltdown, we would have climbed to 3rd i believe. Whilst the season was poor, i’d take that over where we are now.

Where conte really underwhelmed was the Champions League and that limp exit to Milan

 

[harr1984]

I agree. And the excuse that these are reserve players is slightly undone by the fact that these reserve players are the ones that have actually had MORE game time. Besides they're all there everyday listening, learning, practising, training...it must add up to something?

Maybe they ARE playing the system. The problem is the system isn't very good (or at least doesn't look very good?)

Sorry but I can't agree. From that line up yesterday, if you took any 2 or 3 of them even and put them in our first eleven then sure you can expect some semblance of a performance.

But we had a back 4 who never play together, three CMs who whilst have all featured in the starting eleven at some point of the season never play together and a front 3 of Tel/Richi/Odobert who sure as hell have never played together. To ask for some form of cohesiveness from all of that is a massive stretch. You see it all the time in cup games when teams heavily rotate even against lower leagues they look a shadow of the team they usually are - whatever you think they should play like on paper it seldom works that way when you don't play together frequently.

And to be clear, Ange can be criticised for plenty but yesterday is not something I would be looking at whinging about.....