Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[billyiddo]

Soooo.... we just accept that some top 4 finishes are as good as it gets?

Or should we always be aiming higher?

The next step, a squad with more/better financial backing will have higher expectations placed upon it and I'd personally back him to have us winning titles and trophies if we're able to move in the market how we did this summer.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

It's an entirely post hoc argument. Nobody was making this point last December.

So?

 

[billyiddo]

So?

Scara is from the school of debate where you just double down and ignore all evidence to the contrary

 

[scaramanga]

So?

So if you want to enough you can always find excuses in hindsight

 

[glorygloryeze]

You responded to a post i made where i was saying we know what Poch can do with a squad that isn't at the end of it's cycle - which answers whether i think he can or can not move us on from our current position.

He had 4 years of good results and a consistent upward trajectory, we than had a 'poor' season last year with mitigating circumstances (new stadium fiasco, no signings at all and the bulk of our key players going deep in the WC blah blah blah) and so far this season we have started poorly, again with mitigating circumstances (key players running down their contract, deadwood not being moved on, new signings injured so last seasons inactivity in the window feeling even more of a strain) my point is when you remove those mitigating circumstances he has shown himself to be a manager who can get us competing for the big prizes and at the top of the league. So let's give him what he needs to succeed rather than complain he can't struggle on with what's holding him back anymore.

You're meant to back your managers, not make their jobs harder and complain when they tail off

I think it comes down to whether the mitigating circumstances this season are enough of a set of reasons for exactly how poor we seem to be in terms of gameplay and how poorly coached the player are now looking.

- Our fixtures are nowhere near the hardest we've ever had - we should not be starting the season as poorly as we have; 3 wins in 11 is horrendous given what he has at his disposal.
- we are 11th not 6th/7th; again given our fixtures and squad there is no excuses for that

- those key players running their contracts down does NOT automatically equal that they should be playing poorly: we aren't the only club that has had key players in their final years at clubs, most of the time they play really well, even just to advertise their abilities to would be suitors: how many players have Arsenal, Chelsea or Liverpool had in recent times on nearly completed contracts? Did they all play as poorly as our ones are? Or is that a red herring?

- These players if they are playing poorly do (mostly) have alternatives that could be played in instead. Is it not up to the coach to make use of them? If they are deemed not good enough after all these years that most of them have been purchased under Poch, is that not another red flag?

And in terms of "giving him what he needs", i would be inclined to agree...but you have to ask who would have come into the team to be our DCM to replace Wanyama if/when he'd have been sold?
The fact that this position seems to have been highlighted as a priority is another red flag (or ability to tackle/defend from the middle has been shocking for nearly 18 months and should have been a higher priority that, example FB..)

 

[BrainOfLevy]

No, the focus is purely on:

1) should we be underperforming as badly as we are now?
2) do we think Poch is the man that can turn our downturn around

The past and what we did and did not achieve are inescapable pats of how you judge the above.

PS - You can't talk about "a good look" re Spurs fans comments and then totally dismiss what the Club's own manager says wrt to leaving, not having the best squad, thinking trophies are for egos etc

I would also say to you...you know Poch quite literally turned down the opportunity to jump to Real Madrid, right? With the way these things usually work, I bet they expected him to be their Manager. The PR machine was fired up, he was clearly the top target, he only had to tell Levy he wanted out and he would have been gone. But he didn’t go. That is real loyalty.

Everything else, just pales in comparison to the fact that just over a year ago he quite easily could have left, to the biggest club in the world, but didn’t. What he says in the media should be taken with a pinch of salt. He acts effectively as the agent for his coaching staff, and he wants to apply political pressure to Levy so make sure that his loyalty isn’t taken advantage of. Through that lens, the squad probably appreciate Poch doing what he can to get more funds to strengthen.

If you want to vent about a lack of loyalty, have a go at the players that have hung on here for dear life because they can’t find anywhere better. They will be be gone soon enough, but Poch will remain. And if you don’t like his talk about auras and the like, I think just accept the fact that he is a bit different, but that is the reason he has ascended to a top leadership position in his field. He is an innovator and he is a leader. He doesn’t follow the pack and that’s ok. We aren’t supposed to understand everything he does because a lot of it isn’t targeted towards us in the way that you might think. A lot of what he says is designed to get something out of Levy - the fact that they had that dinner to get back on the same page about communication is because Poch was doing what he needed to do to pressure him as much as he could. His leverage is the fact that he might leave. It doesn’t mean he actually wants to but he comes out with these kind of statements at the end of the last two seasons because he needs the club to match his ambition as much as they can.

 

[scaramanga]

The next step, a squad with more/better financial backing will have higher expectations placed upon it and I'd personally back him to have us winning titles and trophies if we're able to move in the market how we did this summer.

So the outcome for us is determined by the quality of the squad?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

So if you want to enough you can always find excuses in hindsight

I don’t see what is wrong with going ‘brick, we’re in some bad form, I wonder what might be causing this’ and reading about the game in a wide enough sense to understand where similarly good Managers at clubs have similar standing have experienced similar problems, and wondering whether that data may apply to us in some way.

Maybe as fans we weren’t warning about the 4 year cycle before the season started, as we all have better things to do with our time, but Poch has been taking about the need for it for the last 2 years. And he’s the one in the firing line. So you folks can rest easy knowing he’s wanted changes for a long time, even if the fans only started looking into it once prompted by bad form.

 

[glorygloryeze]

No I didn’t, because first and foremost I am a fan. I can’t predict the future and I don’t know everything that is going to happen. And even if it is a post-hoc argument, so what? I start the season as a fan with the same sense of hope and optimism as anyone else. But if things go wrong I’m going to try and weigh up all the factors to see what makes most sense to me. On the spectrum of ‘Poch is now a brick manager’ to ‘We’re at the end of a cycle, a bunch of core players don’t want to be here anymore and we haven’t been able to refresh’, I lean on the latter side of the scale.

We are all fans; indeed we cannot predict the future. But we can see what's happening in front of our eyes and make a judgement, taking all history and factors, as to whether Poch can turn it around or not.

The facts at present sadly suggest not and only those resting simply on pure hope - rather than what is playing out on the pitch in front of us - are truly able to suggest otherwise. I want that hope myself, but have very little to grapple with.

I mean, can you or ANYONE, see signs that we are going in the right direction?

 

[billyiddo]

So the outcome for us is determined by the quality of the squad?

Is that a genuine question?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

We are all fans; indeed we cannot predict the future. But we can see what's happening in front of our eyes and make a judgement, taking all history and factors, as to whether Poch can turn it around or not.

The facts at present sadly suggest not and only those resting simply on pure hope - rather than what is playing out on the pitch in front of us - are truly able to suggest otherwise. I want that hope myself, but have very little to grapple with.

I mean, can you or ANYONE, see signs that we are going in the right direction?

Honestly I see us looking much more solid than a few weeks back. And also, sport is form as much as anything else. Recent results are lagging indicators. That we are 11th in the midst of the worst form we’ve had for 5 years suggests to me we are due an upturn pretty soon, and I expect us to go on a run that puts us in a more competitive position.

I follow the NBA a lot too, and this argument about recent results is like saying ‘Steph Curry shot 4/14 from behind the 3 point line last game, what makes you think he’s gonna be dangerous in the next match?’ And the answer is, he’s one of the best shooters of all time. He had a bad night but over the span of his career you know he is better.

Similarly with Spurs, we’re in terrible form and I expect us to improve. And I have seen enough from Poch’s prior achievements to believe he’s got what it takes for us. People can disagree and that’s fine. But he has always been someone that takes the long term view in mind - whether that’s settling players in, protecting players from injury, rotation or giving senior players enough rope to hang themselves because he understands the long term implications of having a squad onside. So I never get too worried in the down moments. I think Poch quite happily takes short term pain for longer term gain, and I see that in his decision making. The upswing will come for us again IMO, we just have to be patient. And I think Poch has earned that patience with his ability and his loyalty to us when he didn’t need to show it.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I would also say to you...you know Poch quite literally turned down the opportunity to jump to Real Madrid, right? With the way these things usually work, I bet they expected him to be their Manager. The PR machine was fired up, he was clearly the top target, he only had to tell Levy he wanted out and he would have been gone. But he didn’t go. That is real loyalty.

What's your source for this?

Everything else, just pales in comparison to the fact that just over a year ago he quite easily could have left, to the biggest club in the world, but didn’t. What he says in the media should be taken with a pinch of salt. He acts effectively as the agent for his coaching staff, and he wants to apply political pressure to Levy so make sure that his loyalty isn’t taken advantage of. Through that lens, the squad probably appreciate Poch doing what he can to get more funds to strengthen.

Again, this is a lot of supposition on your part (and that's fair, none of us are on the 'inside' really), but i again ask: which other top manager goes into the club's biggest game for decades and the manager's own biggest game ever and says "if we win i might leave"? Do you honestly see the likes of Klopp saying that? Did he say such before Liverpool's CL final in 2018? Did he say such after their loss? There are various ways to apply pressure on a board...I'm not even going to ask which of Poch's peers would actually say "trophies are just for egos" months beforehand.
The top coaches who are hungry (like Klopp and others) would instead project a "this is just the start" type of image and not the Redknapp "as good as it gets" type of image.

If you want to vent about a lack of loyalty, have a go at the players that have hung on here for dear life because they can’t find anywhere better. They will be be gone soon enough, but Poch will remain. And if you don’t like his talk about auras and the like, I think just accept the fact that he is a bit different, but that is the reason he has ascended to a top leadership position in his field. He is an innovator and he is a leader. He doesn’t follow the pack and that’s ok. We aren’t supposed to understand everything he does because a lot of it isn’t targeted towards us in the way that you might think. A lot of what he says is designed to get something out of Levy - the fact that they had that dinner to get back on the same page about communication is because Poch was doing what he needed to do to pressure him as much as he could. His leverage is the fact that he might leave. It doesn’t mean he actually wants to but he comes out with these kind of statements at the end of the last two seasons because he needs the club to match his ambition as much as they can.

That "leverage" might have looked strong 18 months to 2 years now. He's still here after signing that long contract before not getting in any player so if anything he looks like someone with empty threats. For that, i do feel for him as i think Levy/the board have shown their lack of 'cajones'...the trouble is Poch's utterances have often shown he is in line with them somewhat (eg, "trophies are only for egos")

I don't think there would be much focus on the lemons and aura stuff if he was doing the basics that got him here: act and talk professionally and not like an emotional up-and-down guy (one minute we're going for the title, the next it will take us 10 years; one minute he's happy with the squad, the next we are struggling with different agendas etc etc), bench underperforming players and bench those who don't seem to 'have loyalty' etc.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Honestly I see us looking much more solid than a few weeks back. And also, sport is form as much as anything else. Recent results are lagging indicators. That we are 11th in the midst of the worst form we’ve had for 5 years suggests to me we are due an upturn pretty soon, and I expect us to go on a run that puts us in a more competitive position.

I follow the NBA a lot too, and this argument about recent results is like saying ‘Steph Curry shot 4/14 from behind the 3 point line last game, what makes you think he’s gonna be dangerous in the next match?’ And the answer is, he’s one of the best shooters of all time. He had a bad night but over the span of his career you know he is better.

Similarly with Spurs, we’re in terrible form and I expect us to improve. And I have seen enough from Poch’s prior achievements to believe he’s got what it takes for us. People can disagree and that’s fine. But he has always been someone that takes the long term view in mind - whether that’s settling players in, protecting players from injury, rotation or giving senior players enough rope to hang themselves because he understands the long term implications of having a squad onside. So I never get too worried in the down moments. I think Poch quite happily takes short term pain for longer term gain, and I see that in his decision making. The upswing will come for us again IMO, we just have to be patient. And I think Poch has earned that patience with his ability and his loyalty to us when he didn’t need to show it.

You honestly see us as looking more solid than a few weeks ago? I suggest stats would disagree, especially given the opposition we are playing these days (save for Liverpool).
Again, you're pinning your expectations on hope based on last year and previous.

Fair enough though...

 

[scaramanga]

Is that a genuine question?

100%

 

[scaramanga]

I don’t see what is wrong with going ‘brick, we’re in some bad form, I wonder what might be causing this’ and reading about the game in a wide enough sense to understand where similarly good Managers at clubs have similar standing have experienced similar problems, and wondering whether that data may apply to us in some way.

Maybe as fans we weren’t warning about the 4 year cycle before the season started, as we all have better things to do with our time, but Poch has been taking about the need for it for the last 2 years. And he’s the one in the firing line. So you folks can rest easy knowing he’s wanted changes for a long time, even if the fans only started looking into it once prompted by bad form.

Let's be generous and assume that Poch saw this coming in advance (I don't believe he did, but for the sake of the discussion I'll make that assumption).....

Did he:

1. Ignore it, or
2. Find himself incapable of fixing it

 

[BrainOfLevy]

You honestly see us as looking more solid than a few weeks ago? I suggest stats would disagree, especially given the opposition we are playing these days (save for Liverpool).
Again, you're pinning your expectations on hope based on last year and previous.

Fair enough though...

I thought we looked horrible against Brighton and not solid against Watford. Against Liverpool and Everton I was pretty impressed with us without the ball and in the Everton game I thought we looked in control, certainly compared to the awful games of a few weeks back.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I thought we looked horrible against Brighton and not solid against Watford. Against Liverpool and Everton I was pretty impressed with us without the ball and in the Everton game I thought we looked in control, certainly compared to the awful games of a few weeks back.

Hmm, a pretty low bar tbh....but....you've got to start somewhere, i guess..

 

[thfcsteff]

Ok you talk about this 4 year cycle; did you think it would be key before the season started? If you did, fair enough. If you didn't then it feels a bit like excuses in hindsight for a poor start.

Who exactly are these players who you believe are suffering/not performing due to this 4 year cycle thing?

What is your endgame here? To be “right”?
Is that what these “discussions” are now about?

Madness...

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Let's be generous and assume that Poch saw this coming in advance (I don't believe he did, but for the sake of the discussion I'll make that assumption).....

Did he:

1. Ignore it, or
2. Find himself incapable of fixing it

The players that he wanted to move, didn’t move. They had options they didn’t take and decided to wait out until the end of their contracts. He is quoted as saying that despite loving certain players, they need to move on for the greater good of the club. He clearly saw it coming because that’s what he wanted to do...

I don’t like to apportion personal blame here. I don’t blame Levy, I don’t blame Poch, I don’t really blame the players for doing what they think is right for their own careers (even if I disagree about how smart they are being and if I dislike the effect it is having on my club). I think we are victims of the success we had, that there aren’t too many better options outside of us for a lot of players, and we are waiting to start spending like a big club while still needing to get rid of players we signed when we were a best of the rest club. The new era has been for 2 years while the whole club makes do, but that is why I think it’s worth sticking together and getting through this. A new manager would identify the same problems, the same positions, and have no guarantee they take the club forward in the same way. Poch knows us, he’s performed well, and I trust that the guy that helped us to more consistent excellence than I thought possible without a sugar daddy has not suddenly turned to brick. I trust him to turn it around.

 

[billyiddo]

I think it comes down to whether the mitigating circumstances this season are enough of a set of reasons for exactly how poor we seem to be in terms of gameplay and how poorly coached the player are now looking.





- Our fixtures are nowhere near the hardest we've ever had - we should not be starting the season as poorly as we have; 3 wins in 11 is horrendous given what he has at his disposal.
- we are 11th not 6th/7th; again given our fixtures and squad there is no excuses for that

- those key players running their contracts down does NOT automatically equal that they should be playing poorly: we aren't the only club that has had key players in their final years at clubs, most of the time they play really well, even just to advertise their abilities to would be suitors: how many players have Arsenal, Chelsea or Liverpool had in recent times on nearly completed contracts? Did they all play as poorly as our ones are? Or is that a red herring?

- These players if they are playing poorly do (mostly) have alternatives that could be played in instead. Is it not up to the coach to make use of them? If they are deemed not good enough after all these years that most of them have been purchased under Poch, is that not another red flag?

And in terms of "giving him what he needs", i would be inclined to agree...but you have to ask who would have come into the team to be our DCM to replace Wanyama if/when he'd have been sold?
The fact that this position seems to have been highlighted as a priority is another red flag (or ability to tackle/defend from the middle has been shocking for nearly 18 months and should have been a higher priority that, example FB..)

I don't think the circumstances alone can account for us being where we are, Pochettino and to a lesser extent the long-term players have to take their share of the blame for not finding a solution. Im not for one second saying Poch is helpless to the situation we're in and have said as much several times but it often seems to fall on death ears. The issue for me isn't whether Poch should be doing better in a bad situation but that the situation is bad in the first place - once you becone sympathetic to the idea that the circumstances in which he is having to manage is to a detriment of getting a good performance whether that is 6th/7th in table vs 11th/12th really becones a matter of semantics.

Moving forward i don't expect to see the club put itself in this situation again, mostly because the mitigating circumstances relate specifically to the building of the stadium and the delay of moving in and the financial constraints placed upon us (meaning squad improvements were hard to come by with a net spend of zero) which are no longer in place and whether the manager can deal with such circumstances as well as others maybe could do will essentially be immaterial to where we will be as a club from next season onward and what will be of importance is how the manager can perform when he has a squad of players in tune with him and how he wants to play (and focussed and pulling in the same direction) and we know based on recent history that in those circumstances Poch will have us competing with the best.